Where are we going?

[rkaiser]

As you might know, Randy Kaiser is a purest. I wouldn't keep two herds of cattle with low registration numbers if I was not.

Got to say there is a lot of good arguement form both purest and homesteaders on this thread. (Sorry couldn't resist) Hard to find a group of true F1's out there though, and if you do find F1 bulls, chances are they will be mated to a hodgepodge genetic base which most of our commercial herds consist of. 1/2 brother F1's might give some consistency, but I truely believe consistency can be nailed with solid purbred genetics, and maybe even a little linebreeding.

I like the conversation about bulls raised like your own management practice, and would hope that the purebred breeders are listening to that. In fact those folks raising crossbred bulls should also be listening.

I really don't think triple A cattle that yield are all that hard to kick out of any breed these days. One that I have a hard time dealing with is the superiority of one or maybe five main breeds, and no need for the rest. Still room for hybrid vigor using a good Gelbvieh bull on a set of cows that have not seen that gene pool yet.

Did I say Gelbvieh, of course I meant Galloway............................

[farmers_son]

Just a comment...If you are raising good cattle then you should be keeping and using bulls from your own herd in your own herd. After all most people keep their own heifers. If you have to keep going out and buy bulls then isn't something wrong? If the bulls you have been buying are improving your herd then after a relatively short period of time your herd should be able to provide you with top quality bulls that you produced yourself in your management conditions.

[grassfarmer]

I guess the reason a lot of people don't use their own bulls is that their herd isn't big enough. It can be a management headache and looks easier to keep daughters and buy in bulls to breed the next generation. Using the top 10 bulls in your breed in North America every year through AI is certainly not the way to go if you want herd consistancy. I would guess you breed as much inconsistancy this way as some people say you get using hybrid bulls.
The one group of Max females I have are very consistant - consistantly bad. Consistantly hard to keep, later calvers, poorer calves and bad feet. I've plenty of teenage baldies but this group would be gone tomorrow if we could sell culls - and they are only carrying their third calves.

[grassfarmer]

Good points from everyone on this topic. I always question what are the top 10 bulls in any breed selected for ? If it is the fad of the year, then I am not interested. If its calving ease, maternal traits, conformation, and all the other things that make a good herd sire and provide genetics that will improve ones herd, then I will certainly try and add those genetics .
I have often bought a good female that is bred to a top notch bull, and if I was lucky enough to get a bull calf with herd sire potential then I would use it on a few head to see what kind of calves I get.
My cows are a consistent bunch, and I am a firm believer in keeping the good daughters of my reliable old cows, so that consistency continues to improve. Mind you, I have some that should be gone out of the herd,and hopefully will be sometime this year but until then they will have another calf !

[cowman]

The fact is there are a lot of commercial cows out there that could knock the socks off just about any purebred cow in the world?
AI'd to a progeny proven bull the chances are you are going to get a superior calf? AI'd to a bull with no numbers, no progeny on the ground, but a illustrious show record...you have nothing! So go with a proven AI bull...not a show fad.
An AI sired calf out of your proven cows costs you what? Say $800 at weaning(pre-BSE)? You feed him tough(no barley/grain) so by spring you have maybe $950 in him? Use him for three breeding seasons for another $600 worth of feed and sell him for $1400(2000lb X $.70)? Cost for 75 calves is $150 or $2/calf?
Now take that fancy $3000 yearling bull. Same maitenance costs, same amount of calves(if his feet hold up), same cull price. He has cost you $29.67/calf. Was he worth it? Did he actually have better genetics or was he the son of the "grand champion" at some mickey mouse fair?
I doubt that tough old cattlebuyer gives one rip if your calves have a history of being related to any grand champion? Raise them stout, healthy and with a good hair coat and he might just forget they don't have a pedigree of winners in the showring?
Where I come from you get paid for pounds. The trick of the trade is to actually get more for that calf than it cost you to raise him? Keep your costs low, maximize growth within those costs, and present a product that is useful for that cattle feeder...it is actually a pretty simple formula?

[rkaiser]

Pretty interesting figures once again cowman. Notice you did not add anything extra for the time and energy put into A.I. breeding however.

The interesting part about this conversation involving crossbred cattle is the fact that up until a couple hundred years ago they were all crossbred. I think it was a benefit to all cattle breeders to start breeding like to like and calling them something. One thing it did was sort the cattle to environmental and usefulness catagories. We were talking about bulls raised in certain conditions; how about adding a couple hundred years of selection for that. Or how about selection for milk, or pulling carts, or a combination of the two.

I'm not making fun, but I have to laugh at that picture Limo breeders bring up that depicts a Limo on the wall of some cave. Probably had cattle like that in those days, but to use it as an example of how long people have been concentrating on the extra muscle trait is a bit funny.

Folks who have been disenchanted with some of the main stream breeds and turned to homesteader bulls for advancement have simply not looked around. There are good cattle breeders with in tons of different breeds. It might not be your neihbor, but they are out there.

[PureCountry]

Hey rkaiser, it's 8:40. Shouldn't you be outside?

[cswilson]

Randy,Randy, Randy always with the labels-I think in the last 25 years I've looked at as many cows and bulls of most breeds as you have there sunshine-want to compare travel notes. I've even run those Gallowegians before-oops I mean Galloways-I'll never forget Robert Ballantyne's Dad's thick scotch brogue.

[smcgrath76]

Very interesting...
I would like to add a couple of thoughts. All of these new fangled figures, numbers etc. describe the information available on these cattle. They don't describe which ones to pick.
Genetics is the business of selecting useful genes to pass on. Limiting selection to your own herd works pretty well if you have all the genes you need to do what you want to do.
If there are 100,000 cowboys in this country then there are probably 100,000 different ways to do it, and probably every cowboy thinks 99,999 of them are wrong.
Home raised bulls can bring genetics into a herd that are "pre-adapted" through the cows genetics. This is a slower way to change than to bring in an outside bull directly, but may suit a cowboys purpose.

[cswilson]

Well put SMC-the easiest cows to run are always your neighbors lol.

[rkaiser]

Sorry Wilson. Homesteader bull is not one that I invented but it seemed to fit when I heard it. Their are so many of these bulls out their now they need a label of some kind. What should we call them.

Homesteader kind of grabs some attention - Not?

[15444]

We run one 4 year old 'Homesteader' bull. lol. He is off our senior purebred sire and one of the best commercial Herefords we ever had. Damn good bull. Should breed another one of our top cows again and try to get all our commercial herd into her frame 5.5, 1300 lbs range.

I think, if you know your commercial herd well, maximize those genes on that top 1-2% of your cow herd, by using a home grown bull.

My only beef is with guys who try to sell crossbred bulls 'en masse' to every commercial guy. You can't convince me in any way shape or form that the 300 bulls that Mac Creech sells each spring are each from top notch, one of a kind cows. Nah....the calves gained good, and they came off half decent bulls, so they are kept as bulls. I'd say between homeraised, purebred and crossbred bulls, your taking the biggest risk on the crossbred ones.