Where are we going?

[PureCountry]

I've gotten alot of bull sale catalogues in the last while, and I can't believe how many guys are peddling these hybrid bulls. Nobody needs to defend them, I know the argument already. Yeah, Yeah, there is a place for them...they work in some herds...blah, blah, blah. My concern is, the quality and consistency. Let's face it, there are alot of crappy bulls out there; purebred OR hybrid.

So where in Olympia are we going with this? When do we stop selling something just because it sells, right or wrong? If someone came in your yard and said,"I've always wanted a red cow with a spotted ass like an Appaloosa."
Would you try and breed them one?

I mean, it's one thing to sell a good honest product that you believe in enough to stand behind 100%. You're proud of all your work and what you've produced. But it is another, in my opinion, to chase the fads or try and capitalize on everything hot that comes along.

In the cattle business, if you're trying to change constantly in order to be on top of the latest craze, can you keep your consistency in your cowherd? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

I just feel it's a shame to see good cattlemen punching out quantities of bulls just cause they can sell them, when I know damn well they could focus on smaller numbers and serve up alot better quality.

[cswilson]

Hybrid bulls would never have come about if the purebred industry was meeting the needs of the producers. All this talk about consistancy using pb bulls is pretty much hogwash-how many pb guys are using the 'flavour of the month' bull-are there cattle going to be any more consistant than a commercial guy who using a group of half brother F1's than are alike phenotypically. There's alot more to consistancy and profit than everything being the same colour. Myself we A'I' then run some Xbred bulls as cleanup-when are steers are killed you can't tell them apart-we've averaged 90 percent plus AAA or higher over last several years. Every bull producer should be running some or partnering on some commercial cows or feeding a pen or two of steers. remember you can B.S. the fans but not the players-there's room in the industry for both types of bulls that is a certainty.

[15444]

I agree with you both.

PureCountry is right about the mongrel bulls like Guppies and Super Maxes, the industry doesn't need them. You start breeding these bulls to already F1 cows and by 3-4 generations later, you have no clue what you have or what to expect phenotypically or genotypically.

But I know cswilson is right about the purebreds. Everybody producing the big AI bulls and consequently, their sons, are so caught up in the showring stats and awards that they don't have a damn clue about how these bulls perform in the field.

Rather then leaving someone to cross all these breeds and try to supply a bull market, why doesn't the purebred industry get its priorities in order and start breeding for the common commercial cattleherd that needs a consistent product?

[grassfarmer]

cswilson, I really agree with your belief that bull breeders should have commercial experience - fortunately there are many such outfits in Alberta.

Purecountry, I know you like to look at prospective bulls on farm. Putting the two together I think it is possible for buyers of any type or cross of bull to find what they are looking for.
The outfits that chop and change breeds will struggle to sell bulls - after they have tried 2 or 3 breeds their credibility is drawn into question, in the mind of serious buyers at least.

The one thing that really strikes me at the moment is the number of purebred Simmental breeders that have had the breed for years suddenly crossing everything with the red angus bull. I think that is a real shame as it indicates a lack of faith in their breed. Simmentals are a fantastic breed - the most adaptable of the continentals in my opinion, but it's clear North American breeders have been breeding or importing the wrong type for the last 30 years. It's a shame the breed gets a bad name when it's the breeders that have got them where they are today.

[WoolyBear]

So true, so true......... Its shameful how certain breed followers and promotors have bastardized their stock by introducing "black" influence (or red) and then to pass it all off as purebred. Simmentals (one of many examples) have been in existance for a lot of years and BLACK was never seen in the REAL purebreds.

While I'm not suggesting that they aren't good bulls, just don't pass them off as being PURE.......

[PureCountry]

I did say there are alot of crappy bulls out there: ..."purebred OR hybrid." That was my point. When are these guys gonna get their stuff together and stop flooding the market with these bulls?

I guess they'll keep selling as long as someone keeps buying, and that's the part I believe is a damn shame. I think a good seedstock producer should produce good seedstock - whatever breed - but not jump on this wagon or that. I know people in most breeds who could supply me with damn good bulls if I chose that breed, I guess I'm just making the observation that we need a heck of alot more like that.

But I do believe that hybrid bulls will do more harm than good in the long run of a cow-calf program. I'm not gonna argue it with anyone, it's just my opinion.

[kato]

Crossbred bull on a crossbred cow makes a mongrel. (In the dog world, mongrels can be very smart and good dogs, but they are very seldom alike

The only place I would use a crossbred bull would be on a straight bred cow. Other than that, you really can't predict what you end up with. It's hard enough raising a uniform group of calves as it is without having calves that have four or five combinations of breeds in their backgrounds. Just my opinion.

As for 'real world' bulls, the Charolais have had a program going for years called Conception to Consumer, where they follow commercial calves right through to slaughter and collect lots of data. The numbers of calves are high on these, especially on some of the established bulls, so it can be very useful.

[cswilson]

Well I beg to differ on xbred bulls throwing uneven calves because I've seen to much evidance to the contrary. Alot of Simmental breeders started using Red Angus bulls when the spotted and belted cattle and yellows fell out of a favour-a good thick Red Angus bull and voila you have a saleable baldy bull-those kind of deals aren't always good. I'd challenge anybody to come sort my calves and be able to sort the Xbred sired calves from the straightbreds-it's easier to do the yearling heifers after pregtesting-the crossbreds will all be in the bred pen. Till then I'll still raise those mongrels that top the grid.

[cswilson]

If the buyers will raise their hand and bid on xbred bulls then they will still be sold.
I think one reason the simi breeders crossed with Red Angus was to get birth weights under control, and they sure in heck weren't going to use another exotic were they ????
Some of the hybrid bulls I have seen would have made poor steers, but people were buying them.

It has been a good marketing tool for some folks and tough to knock if they are able to sell them at a decent price and have repeat customers.
I personally don't agree with it but to each his own.

[cswilson]

Good point Emerald-there are some Simmental bulls I like but are too milky or birthy to use-we breed a set of our better cows to them and then use those crossbred bulls for cleaning up A.I. Calving on the grass unobserved takes alot different genetics than pen calving under lights. Personally the only crossbred bulls I use are ones we've raised ourselves out of older proven cows-had a customer phone the other day- he was running a halfblood bull from us but was thinking he might need another-this one was only 10-something to be said for longevity and fertility. It's a dollars and cents issue with me-for a few hundred bucks worth of semen I can raise a set of half brothers adapted to my ranchs conditions-out of cows that have worked for me. Guess I'm too Scotch to play bull sale roulette every spring.

[grassfarmer]

I guess a lot of this comes down to time and patience. All these traits could be selected for or against if you were prepared to put in the work and time required. Crossbreeding Simmis to Red Angus is a quick fix. I have no problem people using these crossbred bulls on commercial cows but when semen catalogues are full of "purebred" bulls that are obviously 3/4 one thing and 1/4 something else it becomes a bit ridiculous. Like lots of things it comes down to sustainability - can breeds continue to exist in their different roles if everybody uses the quick fix of crossbreeding in so called purebred animals.

[grassfarmer]

I know where you are coming from regarding using sons of your reliable females on your own cattle.

I have been in the purebred cattle business for years but really HATE having to go out and buy a bull . Not that I mind paying decent money but it is so damn difficult to buy anything that has been raised the same way my cattle are, or hasn't been fed the heck out of by the time it is a yearling.

[rkaiser]

As you might know, Randy Kaiser is a purest. I wouldn't keep two herds of cattle with low registration numbers if I was not.

Got to say there is a lot of good arguement form both purest and homesteaders on this thread. (Sorry couldn't resist) Hard to find a group of true F1's out there though, and if you do find F1 bulls, chances are they will be mated to a hodgepodge genetic base which most of our commercial herds consist of. 1/2 brother F1's might give some consistency, but I truely believe consistency can be nailed with solid purbred genetics, and maybe even a little linebreeding.

I like the conversation about bulls raised like your own management practice, and would hope that the purebred breeders are listening to that. In fact those folks raising crossbred bulls should also be listening.

I really don't think triple A cattle that yield are all that hard to kick out of any breed these days. One that I have a hard time dealing with is the superiority of one or maybe five main breeds, and no need for the rest. Still room for hybrid vigor using a good Gelbvieh bull on a set of cows that have not seen that gene pool yet.

Did I say Gelbvieh, of course I meant Galloway............................

[farmers_son]

Just a comment...If you are raising good cattle then you should be keeping and using bulls from your own herd in your own herd. After all most people keep their own heifers. If you have to keep going out and buy bulls then isn't something wrong? If the bulls you have been buying are improving your herd then after a relatively short period of time your herd should be able to provide you with top quality bulls that you produced yourself in your management conditions.

[grassfarmer]

I guess the reason a lot of people don't use their own bulls is that their herd isn't big enough. It can be a management headache and looks easier to keep daughters and buy in bulls to breed the next generation. Using the top 10 bulls in your breed in North America every year through AI is certainly not the way to go if you want herd consistancy. I would guess you breed as much inconsistancy this way as some people say you get using hybrid bulls.
The one group of Max females I have are very consistant - consistantly bad. Consistantly hard to keep, later calvers, poorer calves and bad feet. I've plenty of teenage baldies but this group would be gone tomorrow if we could sell culls - and they are only carrying their third calves.