big cattle- little cattle

[kpb]

cs wilson, I have no argument with you--I think a good answer is to breed British cows to exotic bulls. All I'm saying is that if you breed British cows to British bulls you may have easy keepers but you will also have calves in the fall that the feeders will not bid up for. And that is because they will not finish in 13 or 14 months no matter how you feed them. Believe me I've tried and so have a whole lot of other feeders--these calves need to go to grass. Why else do you think the pure British calves get discounted in the fall and the exotic crosses get the premiums?
It's great to have low-upkeep cows but if your customer (the feeder) won't buy the calves in the fall because he can't finish them quickly enough, are you really ahead of the game?

[rkaiser]

Can't finish kbp?

I've just shown you actual results of Galloway calves finished at just over 12 months - 1300 pounds and AAA.

All this british vs. continental cross is in peoples minds.

Galloway are British Cattle, but don't have the frame of most Angus and Hereford cattle these days. If they can do it, any British cattle should be able to.

You may have tried it kbp, but what type of cattle did you try it with?
Not what breed, what type?

[grassfarmer]

You are right rkaiser not what breed but what type - and how they were raised. All the people on here saying "british" breeds won't grow and need to be grassed for another year hence they get a poor price in the fall. But how often do I read on here that you can't beat black angus calves - so what are black angus x baldies? aren't they the top sellers? Lets pick on the horned hereford breed or a pen of Galloways you saw 30 years ago.It's like the hair debate - pick a pen of poor hairy animals you saw once and tar them all with the same brush.
Whiteface - along with a lot of other purebred people you need to run commercial cows and find out that 1100-1200lb cows aren't tiny.

[kpb]

well fellows you can say what you want but if you guys think you can finish pure British calves at the same rate as an exotic cross then I'm afraid you just don't know the feeding business. The simple fact is that if you buy 500 pound pure British calves in the fall you need to grow them over the winter, then flesh them on grass to get them to finish the next fall. If you buy some black Angus-Simmi crosses you can finish them the following spring. By the way grassfarmer the best selling blacks have a spot of white on their bellies that lets the feeders know they've got some exotic blood in them--those are the blacks that sell the best and they feed very well (I've got a pen of these right now).
Now I appreciate you guys have your own axes to grind with your own purebred herds and that's fine. And, as I said to cs wilson, I think a British cow with an exotic bull is the best. But you've got to have a bit of exotic blood if you want to finish in the spring.

[cswilson]

I've placed 450 weight british calves on feed at Highland Feeders and had them finish at 1300 pounds so it can be done. We've fed all our calves for years so got a rough idea of how it works. I actually place cattle on feed throughout the year at differant weights so not locked into one market.

[kpb]

cs wilson, I have no doubt in my mind that you or grassfarmer or rkaiser can produce British calves that will finish in the spring. What I am saying is that feeding calves is a numbers game for anyone who treats it like a business--if I buy 1000 tan calves in the fall I know with a large degree of certainty that 90% of them will be ready to go by 13 or 14 months of age. If I buy pure British calves in the fall, same time, I know with a high degree of certainty that 90% will have to grow longer and go to grass to flesh out. 10% of the British may finish in the spring but I have to go with the calves that I know will finish.

[ALICIA]

If you have got 1100 and 1200 pounds cows that are not tiny, then they must be a bag of bones because any hereford 1100 or 1200 are little butter balls and no more that 52 or 53 at the withers.
This is the problem, these little butter balls wein a 500 pounds calf that is all fat because of the good rich milk, and their is no growth in this genetic make up to grow.
That is way a hereford is not just a hereford. Look at the type of hereford, not just the white face.
That is why I like my herefords. I started with those little butter balls that would milk like no tomarow, and breed them to great big growth bull. I got great big herefords but cut my milk in half and some didn't even milk at all. This was great for the feed lot guy because these calfs were just starving for food and grow like every thing. One of these big growth calf I put into a bull test station and he gained 5.2 pounds a day and was over 1500 pounds at just under a year old and had a frame score of 5.7. Personaly I wouldn't of breed one cow to this bull, he had not a bit of meat on his bones and I'm sure he wouldn't of graded even a A, but he looked just like his mother and I sold her the next year. She weighted in at over 1800 pounds and was just a bone rake. You get just wait you breed to in any breed, be it hereford or the others.
Personaly I am really proud of the herefords I have calfing in my barn right now. It just took me 3 years and I went from big 1600 plus herefords down to 1300 to 1400 herefords by keeping all my heifers from the top milking cows breed to a smaller framed milky bull. Of course I'm not that sure of the real weight because we are tlking that 75% of the herd is 3 and 2 year olds. But I've got my milk back and I believe that the growth is still in the genetics to grow for the feed lot guy. But like you said he will just see the white face.

[cswilson]

Well you are probably right at that kbp. Do you do any custom grazing.

[cowman]

There is a guy feeding cows out on swaths west of Red Deer. Black cows but BIG cows. Now they sure look thrifty to me but what do I know? They definitely are not pure angus cows. I'm not sure when he calves but those cows sure have some big stout black calves on them in the fall! I suspect he does very well with them?
Personally I like a cow in that 1350-1400 lb. range. Not the fat hogs that really are small framed cows carrying 300 pounds of lard! I like a cow with some frame so she can produce a calf with some frame. Put a char on her and ring the bell at the sale! Personally I want a calf right around that 100lb birthweight, because those are the ones who grow like hell! Never had any calving problems to speak of. Could I make more money raising little dumpy cattle? Maybe....maybe not? Personally I doubt it.
kpb knows what the fall calf market demands. Now perhaps I was always an idiot for not raising a bunch of little hogs and feeding them out but actually I really liked just loading them in the truck off the cow and adios! Maybe the lazy way to do it, but if that is the way you choose then you should breed cattle that maximize that lazy livestyle? I have said it again and again...there is no "right" way...just whatever works for you?

[rkaiser]

Good enough for me too boys; whatever works for you. Just have a bit of a hard time with "can't be done".