big cattle- little cattle

[kato]

I'll play devil's advocate for a bit...

How about the expenses involved in keeping cattle for a longer time? I have a hard time believing we'd be farther ahead wintering small calves 'cheap', grassing them, and waiting until next fall for a cheque.

How about cash flow or such things as interest costs? At the present time, interest rates are not that severe, but I remember the days when they could literally put you out of business.

Or the cost of the land needed to grass those calves? (That's a big one.)Or the fact that the longer you own them, there is always the chance of losing one or two?

And then there's the issue of teeth. I have a feeling that in the next several years, teeth are going to be a hot topic in the cattle business. Right now, even if they have a birth certificate, if the vet says his teeth say he's too old, then he's too old.

What is this going to do to the yearling grass market? A calf born in May, and grassed the next year will come to the feedlot at about 17 months of age. Give him another 400 pounds at 3 pounds a day, and he's 21 months old. If these cattle have been on grass, (which is hard on their teeth), there will be fats at this age that do fail the mouth test. It's a very costly test to fail. Profit can go out the window very quickly if even a percentage of these calves lose their UTM status.

Will the future move to calves that can come off the cow, onto grain and out the other end of the feedlot at 13 months? Even with the higher inputs, having a 100% pass rate on the mouth test will be a definite incentive to go this way.

Just my thoughts.

[kpb]

cs, I'm not sure if you're saying what I said is a bunch of baloney or if what whiteface said is a bunch of baloney or if we're both full of it. And I'm not arguing with anyone that small cows have a big place in the future of our business and are generally more efficient than the big monsters.
All I'm saying, and you can argue it if you want but it is the simple truth, is that you cannot take a calf that is purely British coming off its momma in the fall at 500 lbs. and finish him by, say April or May of the next year. It just won't happen because you cannot grow him fast enough. He'll end up a little butterball. But I can take a Maine or Semi or Char cross with a British and finish him by May because they grow fast and fatten fast. That's the truth, coming from someone who's fed lots of both and that is why, as Whiteface has said, the exotics get more dough from the feeders in the fall.
On the other hand I also grass some and the British are far away the best for that and will end up just beautiful 1,000 pounders by August the next year. It's just that most feeders will not grass but want to finish them quickly in a feedlot. So that's why there's a premium for exotics.

[kpb]

kato, I am so glad you posted a thread because the same concerns about grassing yearlings have been going through my head and you articulated it very well. The fact is that there is a risk in grassing now as I see it from the age point of view. You point out that the industry will move more towards finishing animals at 13 months. Actually the industry as a whole favors that approach now and has for a while. If you can get the animals out faster, you're better off because you can use the same facilities for more animals. As I said in my last post, that's why feeders bid more for exotics in the fall and stay away from the small British calves. They know they can get the exotics to finish without going to grass. I hate to say it because I prefer to grow on grass but we make more money from turning the feedlot calves.

[rkaiser]

Once again I think we have to consider type, rather than breed of cattle in this arguement.

Just looking back at last years Olds College Steer a year results.

5 April born Char Cross calves finished July 13th at 1450 pound average. 3.22 Average daily gain and all graded AAA with only one yeilding #2; the rest #1
Pretty darn good results eh!

Now lets consider
5 April born Galloway sired calves from Galloway crossbred dams.
Finished May 8th at 1302 pounds. 3.43
Average Daily gain and one graded AA with the rest making AAA. Yeild were off from the chars with one Yeild #1, 3#2 and 1#3.
Feed conversion was similar for the two breeds.

[cswilson]

Welll as far as teeth goes-I fed a group of dry twos-heifers that lost their calves-and they all graded after they were finished-they were pushing the 30 month window hard.In fact we made an $80 buck premium on the grid as they all AAA. How many exotic calf feds will marble at 13-14 months-I've compared kill results with some neighbors and not alot. What's wrong with 12-1300 british cross cows bred exotic -best of both worlds smaller production factor plus a calf that will grow fast and still quality grade. Trust me I've done the big cow thing-we ran Exotic cattle for 30 years.

[kpb]

cs wilson, I have no argument with you--I think a good answer is to breed British cows to exotic bulls. All I'm saying is that if you breed British cows to British bulls you may have easy keepers but you will also have calves in the fall that the feeders will not bid up for. And that is because they will not finish in 13 or 14 months no matter how you feed them. Believe me I've tried and so have a whole lot of other feeders--these calves need to go to grass. Why else do you think the pure British calves get discounted in the fall and the exotic crosses get the premiums?
It's great to have low-upkeep cows but if your customer (the feeder) won't buy the calves in the fall because he can't finish them quickly enough, are you really ahead of the game?

[rkaiser]

Can't finish kbp?

I've just shown you actual results of Galloway calves finished at just over 12 months - 1300 pounds and AAA.

All this british vs. continental cross is in peoples minds.

Galloway are British Cattle, but don't have the frame of most Angus and Hereford cattle these days. If they can do it, any British cattle should be able to.

You may have tried it kbp, but what type of cattle did you try it with?
Not what breed, what type?

[grassfarmer]

You are right rkaiser not what breed but what type - and how they were raised. All the people on here saying "british" breeds won't grow and need to be grassed for another year hence they get a poor price in the fall. But how often do I read on here that you can't beat black angus calves - so what are black angus x baldies? aren't they the top sellers? Lets pick on the horned hereford breed or a pen of Galloways you saw 30 years ago.It's like the hair debate - pick a pen of poor hairy animals you saw once and tar them all with the same brush.
Whiteface - along with a lot of other purebred people you need to run commercial cows and find out that 1100-1200lb cows aren't tiny.

[kpb]

well fellows you can say what you want but if you guys think you can finish pure British calves at the same rate as an exotic cross then I'm afraid you just don't know the feeding business. The simple fact is that if you buy 500 pound pure British calves in the fall you need to grow them over the winter, then flesh them on grass to get them to finish the next fall. If you buy some black Angus-Simmi crosses you can finish them the following spring. By the way grassfarmer the best selling blacks have a spot of white on their bellies that lets the feeders know they've got some exotic blood in them--those are the blacks that sell the best and they feed very well (I've got a pen of these right now).
Now I appreciate you guys have your own axes to grind with your own purebred herds and that's fine. And, as I said to cs wilson, I think a British cow with an exotic bull is the best. But you've got to have a bit of exotic blood if you want to finish in the spring.

[cswilson]

I've placed 450 weight british calves on feed at Highland Feeders and had them finish at 1300 pounds so it can be done. We've fed all our calves for years so got a rough idea of how it works. I actually place cattle on feed throughout the year at differant weights so not locked into one market.

[kpb]

cs wilson, I have no doubt in my mind that you or grassfarmer or rkaiser can produce British calves that will finish in the spring. What I am saying is that feeding calves is a numbers game for anyone who treats it like a business--if I buy 1000 tan calves in the fall I know with a large degree of certainty that 90% of them will be ready to go by 13 or 14 months of age. If I buy pure British calves in the fall, same time, I know with a high degree of certainty that 90% will have to grow longer and go to grass to flesh out. 10% of the British may finish in the spring but I have to go with the calves that I know will finish.

[ALICIA]

If you have got 1100 and 1200 pounds cows that are not tiny, then they must be a bag of bones because any hereford 1100 or 1200 are little butter balls and no more that 52 or 53 at the withers.
This is the problem, these little butter balls wein a 500 pounds calf that is all fat because of the good rich milk, and their is no growth in this genetic make up to grow.
That is way a hereford is not just a hereford. Look at the type of hereford, not just the white face.
That is why I like my herefords. I started with those little butter balls that would milk like no tomarow, and breed them to great big growth bull. I got great big herefords but cut my milk in half and some didn't even milk at all. This was great for the feed lot guy because these calfs were just starving for food and grow like every thing. One of these big growth calf I put into a bull test station and he gained 5.2 pounds a day and was over 1500 pounds at just under a year old and had a frame score of 5.7. Personaly I wouldn't of breed one cow to this bull, he had not a bit of meat on his bones and I'm sure he wouldn't of graded even a A, but he looked just like his mother and I sold her the next year. She weighted in at over 1800 pounds and was just a bone rake. You get just wait you breed to in any breed, be it hereford or the others.
Personaly I am really proud of the herefords I have calfing in my barn right now. It just took me 3 years and I went from big 1600 plus herefords down to 1300 to 1400 herefords by keeping all my heifers from the top milking cows breed to a smaller framed milky bull. Of course I'm not that sure of the real weight because we are tlking that 75% of the herd is 3 and 2 year olds. But I've got my milk back and I believe that the growth is still in the genetics to grow for the feed lot guy. But like you said he will just see the white face.

[cswilson]

Well you are probably right at that kbp. Do you do any custom grazing.

[cowman]

There is a guy feeding cows out on swaths west of Red Deer. Black cows but BIG cows. Now they sure look thrifty to me but what do I know? They definitely are not pure angus cows. I'm not sure when he calves but those cows sure have some big stout black calves on them in the fall! I suspect he does very well with them?
Personally I like a cow in that 1350-1400 lb. range. Not the fat hogs that really are small framed cows carrying 300 pounds of lard! I like a cow with some frame so she can produce a calf with some frame. Put a char on her and ring the bell at the sale! Personally I want a calf right around that 100lb birthweight, because those are the ones who grow like hell! Never had any calving problems to speak of. Could I make more money raising little dumpy cattle? Maybe....maybe not? Personally I doubt it.
kpb knows what the fall calf market demands. Now perhaps I was always an idiot for not raising a bunch of little hogs and feeding them out but actually I really liked just loading them in the truck off the cow and adios! Maybe the lazy way to do it, but if that is the way you choose then you should breed cattle that maximize that lazy livestyle? I have said it again and again...there is no "right" way...just whatever works for you?

[rkaiser]

Good enough for me too boys; whatever works for you. Just have a bit of a hard time with "can't be done".