big cattle- little cattle

[whiteface]

Sure, grassfarmer, I'd love to have the land base and manpower to run a whole whack of commercial cows to test my bulls on and compare how my purebreds perform against a few crossbred counterparts. I just can't but I have an extremely good repeat customer that has purchased bulls from me for years and is now taking groups of females to "cross" on his mostley straightbred Charolais cattle (some Red angus some Sim) and I am dumbfounded at how my "good" easy keeping grass cattle that will still perform in the feedlot are absolutly transformed to an unbeleiveable new level when mixed with the Charolais in his herd. I think at times many of us think we have something good and have no idea how much better it could be if we opened our eyes just a little. CS, I don't doubt for a second that you can get a straight british to feed out at 13 mos, nor do I doubt that grassfarmer you have some highly efficient tiny little cows that still get you a premium from your customers when they purchase the grass fed beef. I've seen first hand what happens to my own cows when crossed with an exotic bull and let me assure you all, he doesn't keep comeing back because I'm a nice person, these buckskin calves are making him piles of money. I'm willing to go out on a limb here and not make this just a battle of the breeds. I agree totally that there are good and bad cattle and management skills in every walk of life. However, I did spend a lot of years being one of those poor souls at the auction mart with my straight-bred calves that got docked severly because we all know it, herefords as a breed are not known for high performance on feed, generally as a breed they do not grow, they just get fat...fine for the cow calf guy but if you sell your calves to feeders, and are getting as much as 10 cents a pound less, does it pencil back to your cows that they are that much more easy to keep than a little shot of something that would grow thrown in?
It took a long time and a lot of work on my genetics to convince my buyers that a straight british calf could maybe feed and grow but even with that said, all you guys who have really great cattle and I know you do, WHAT IF, they could be just a little better ( maybe the word is more suited to )your buyers, IF in fact your buyers are feeders, if not ignoreme, I'll go away, by sticking a little bit of growth on those tiny "efficient" cows. Just my thoughts. Are you pissed at me now Mr. Wilson ( I said Mr.! ) will you sell me the Cheque semen or not...
You tell me, what do you and your neighbor want for it? Have a good day all!

[rkaiser]

One of the best Buds I have on this planet is a purebred Charlais breeder. We poke and prod with the labels from time to time, like oxen and mini's, but respect for each other's program has been there from the start.

When one feedlot demands that they have a little exotic in them, another demands that they have a little british. We all know that a 1300 pound carcass is just as good, or maybe even more acceptable than a 1500 pounder. We also know that our pricing system is based on price per pound, and our feed is sold or produced in dollars per pound. I don't think any one of us is going to educate the other here with talk of what is best. It is like everything else in life, once we become adults, we take all the stuff we know we were right about as teenagers and amplify the right in it.

When cowman said his cows weighed 1350 pounds, I was shocked. My Welsh wouldn't be far behind, and my Galloways less than 100 ponds back. I'll bet Grant Hirsche's herefords average 1650. British/exotic, I don't think there is room for arguement there anymore. Preference and and ego ----- lots of room for arguement.

[rkaiser]

Ah sh7t, I said ponds instead of pounds. Now Whiteface will be correcting my spelling again. Speaking of ponds however; does anyone know that Galloways were the first purebred british breed to cross the big Atlantic pond? Water was prety cold, thus the now inherent hair coat.

[kpb]

cs wilson, we haven't custom grazed in several years as we expanded our northern ranch to take our grassers in the summer. We only grass about 350 to 400 calves now in the summer anyways along with the cow herd. It is a 5 and a half hour trip to the north ranch and costly so I'm still (after several years of doing it) trying to work out the economics of it. But the land is cheap so...
I think Whiteface has the absolute right idea of what to breed to what if you want a cow that is an easy keeper and a calf that will feed well. I guess when I said earlier that a British calf will not finish in 13 months I should have said almost all British calves because I'm sure there are some that can. But when I'm buying my feeders in the fall, to be honest, I can't look at every individual calf (they're often bought on TEAM anyways) and have to go with the odds on what will feed well as a group. And that, without a doubt, is the British-exotic crossbred calf.

[cswilson]

Geez kdp I hope you didn't expand into northern Sask.-I always say if the buyers are stealing your calves maybe you should pit in and buy a bunch just like them. You must have trouble not drooling when a bunch of 5 weight Britsh calves come in with some horns and nuts-5 minutes work and some good grass and you turn a 10-15 cent discount into an even money or premium grass steer.

[grassfarmer]

whiteface, yes it is a case of whatever works for a person but to call my size of cattle "tiny little" is garbage.
I am building a herd of cows that will be red with a target weight of 12-1250lbs.(a genetic challenge on this strong land).
The best of these cows will be bred pure to provide replacements with the remainder bred to top Rawes Charolais bulls to produce tan calves that will top the market at any stage. Someday if I do a good enough job of promotion I might breed them all pure and try to sell more breeding stock to the farmers who survive the current crisis.
I have a neighbour that has 17-1800lb char x cows which he breeds red angus or hereford. It just seems the "Irish" way to do it... keep a herd of high maintanence cows to breed to a small breed bull versus breeding an efficient cow size herd to a large breed sire.

1250 lb cows will produce charolais calves at 85lbs that will grow at close to 3lb a day on their mothers. Big enough to fit the growth requirements of any buyer - all the XXL cows you see walking the countryside are carrying weight they don't need = INEFFICIENCY.

[whiteface]

Don't get me wrong, grassfarmer, I in no way meant to imply that "tiny little" cows are a bad thing ( I have some myself ) but was more trying to nail down the point that the average size of most cowherds is much heavier and mostley due to the "demands" for bigger cows (smaller cows won't get the yearling weights out of their calves MOST OF THE TIME and the feedlot guys like kbp will pay a little more for something they know will get bigger). I so know where kbp is comeing from after having spent a jillion hours at auction marts and asking the "buyers" what they want...
That's my job as a purebred breeder to make the best cattle I can and keep my ear to the ground finding out what my buyers want. About one-third to one-half of my calves need to suit the feedlot guys, rest are the elite and sold as breeding stock (but still need to suit the feedlot guys because ultimatley some of their offspring will likely be put on offer to those very same guys. I'm not running out an buying a Charolais bull any time soon (or an Angus or Galloway or Tarentaise, Pinzguar you name it which incidentally I'm fully aware would give me hybrid vigor if nothing else. And (and yes, I know you're not supposed to start a sentence with and...do you all know why?) if I buy right and yes cowman, PAY A LITTLE MONEY for a genetically superior bull I may even have extra growth along with hybrid vigor. I'm still very aware of what the buyers want and why they want it, then I'm left with the decision of whether or not to make it for them or complain about why they're wrong and why they should buy my stuff even if it's not what they really need.
I'm not in any kind of fight mode here, just babbling. If my dribble works for you great, if not, as I said, ignore me, won't hurt my feelings. Still hope y'all have a good day.
Kaiser...
You can't even spell shit! There is no 7 in shit the last time I looked! I've given up on you!!! LOL
Wilson, you don't know what you want for your semen?? Or did you just throw it out there to see if you'd get a bid and now that you have you want to keep it because it's "in demand" and probably "worth big bucks!!!" Maybe. But a commodity is only "worth something" once it sells. You want to turn it into cash or just talk about it. I don't care just let me know or stop talking about it.

[cowman]

Now Whiteface, I never said you should be cheap when buying a bull! Commercial and purebred are two completely different worlds!
Randy: It has been a struggle to keep those cows at a decent weight! And I will freely admit I have some girls that weigh one hell of a lot more than 1400 lbs. Sold one this fall off grass that weighed 1740! But the "target" weight is 1350-1400...not easy to do even using a whole wack of Red Angus genetics!
This whole cross breeding thing can be a real pain without a doubt? We target certain cows to raise replacements and have been doing the Red angus thing for several years. That gives us a cow we can live with but they are getting a little bit too "angus" for me! The boy says" to hell with that. Buy F1 females and breed the whole works Char, but I have a problem with that"! Maybe it is an ego thing but I like to think I have some good solid genetics that I have been breeding all my life, and I doubt I can buy an F1 that is better...maybe I need a reality check?
And here is the curse of quitting...but still being involved to a certain extent? I guess I'll just have to argue enough until he comes around to my way of thinking?LOL

[rkaiser]

Have I got a deal for you cowman.
I was looking at my yearling pen this morning and decided that one of my good reds will be our new junior red bull and that makes his papa expentable.
He's a red 2150 pound coming 4 year old with replacement female written all over his back and his balls. Decided this mornig to substitute him for lot #20, the fighting SOB that committed suicide a couple of weeks ago.
I know you've always wanted to stop in for a visit cowman, nows our chance.

[cowman]

Randy: Uh, I don't actually own any cows...remember? But thanks for the invite!
The boy is a died in the wool Charlais man!
Who knows, some day I just might surprize you and stop in, although I truly hate driving highway #2 anymore, as the traffic is horrendous!
Despite the fact that must percieve me as some miserable old SOB who is set in his ways, I have always appreciated good cattle, of any breed. And I have seen some very good Welsh Blacks at Little Red Feeders(an old and very close friend...my ABP rep) and some good functional Galloways at Horveys near Delburne.
And Randy, despite the fact sometimes I rip you(or so you might perceive it) I do admire your dedication to the cattle industry and your efforts that go beyond any personal gain! I suspect you are all "cow" and have yor ducks all in a row(Well as much as any of us can!)?

[cowman]

actually, cowman, I do have to say that that I drove Hwy. 2A yesterday afternoon and saw some of Randy's bulls out in the pens. Looked pretty good Randy, and that is coming from a limo breeder who admires both the red and black cattle !!!
There are some breeds that I will NEVER have on this place because of past experience with them when we were in the commercial business and just getting started raising purebreds. I won't knock another mans cattle so won't mention any breeds I don't like !

cowman, I have visited Little Red Feeders and certainly give the fellow a lot of credit for the measures he is taking to protect the environment.

[rkaiser]

For goodness sake emerald, stop in if you have a moment. The bulls you saw on the 2A were my backgrounded yearlings a few culls, and three herd bulls. The sale bulls are 1/4 mile east right by my house.

Late 70's early 80's we used mostly Limo bulls on our commercial herd. Even bred a few purebred. Bought two black cows from Brian McClaren over at Ponoka, A.I. bred them to a bull called Bullet and raised an awful good Black bull. Crossed with Angus and sold some calves to 4H kids over by Wetasscomein.

One of the last bulls we bought was a bull called Link, from Hochhausen over at Strome.

Sold the very first lot of calves over satelite auction at Clyde. Limo cross heifer calves to Ontario. Not our vry first, THE very first.

Have a story or two about Charlais that we had in the seventies as well cowman. Remeber Bingo, Cub Cadet, or what about Prarie Pride?

[rkaiser]

I remember the Link bull Randy. Brian McLaren had some pretty nice black cattle years ago.

[cowman]

Well Randy those bulls were a little before my Charlais time, but I've heard some horror stories about the old Bingo bull!
Started out with a couple of bulls from Jim Cruikshank of Olds and used quite a bit of Chairman semen as well as some Super Star from him as well. The calves were big at birth but built right!
Also used an AI bull called FSC Willard(I think that was his name) that left some really good calves. Tried a bit of Polled Unlimited and a son... I don't remember the name.
Have used ABS red angus genetics almost exclusively except for one McKenzie bull. Really liked Bootjack.
Used some Sim semen but can't remember all the names! Gelvieh once(the semen was too expensive...but good calves) and Salers(Prince and Rebel) and even used Longhorn on the heifers a couple of years!
Took the AI course back in the early eighties and still keep the AI tank charged even though have not done any AI for a couple of years.(Free nitrogen helps!lol) Taught the boy how to AI myself! AI really isn't very hard. Any idiot can thread a French gun...the tough part is decent heat detection and having a very quiet way of working cattle.

[whiteface]

Funny you say that cowman. I have absolutly no trouble detecting heat and yet am scared to death to take the course or try A.I. myself. I'm actually inspired to rethink that with your comments. A.I. is a very useful tool for herd improvement and something I should likely do much more of. Have always based my program on the best "walking" bulls but like A.I. for a little genetic diversification. Thanks and have a good day!