big cattle- little cattle

[cowman]

actually, cowman, I do have to say that that I drove Hwy. 2A yesterday afternoon and saw some of Randy's bulls out in the pens. Looked pretty good Randy, and that is coming from a limo breeder who admires both the red and black cattle !!!
There are some breeds that I will NEVER have on this place because of past experience with them when we were in the commercial business and just getting started raising purebreds. I won't knock another mans cattle so won't mention any breeds I don't like !

cowman, I have visited Little Red Feeders and certainly give the fellow a lot of credit for the measures he is taking to protect the environment.

[rkaiser]

For goodness sake emerald, stop in if you have a moment. The bulls you saw on the 2A were my backgrounded yearlings a few culls, and three herd bulls. The sale bulls are 1/4 mile east right by my house.

Late 70's early 80's we used mostly Limo bulls on our commercial herd. Even bred a few purebred. Bought two black cows from Brian McClaren over at Ponoka, A.I. bred them to a bull called Bullet and raised an awful good Black bull. Crossed with Angus and sold some calves to 4H kids over by Wetasscomein.

One of the last bulls we bought was a bull called Link, from Hochhausen over at Strome.

Sold the very first lot of calves over satelite auction at Clyde. Limo cross heifer calves to Ontario. Not our vry first, THE very first.

Have a story or two about Charlais that we had in the seventies as well cowman. Remeber Bingo, Cub Cadet, or what about Prarie Pride?

[rkaiser]

I remember the Link bull Randy. Brian McLaren had some pretty nice black cattle years ago.

[cowman]

Well Randy those bulls were a little before my Charlais time, but I've heard some horror stories about the old Bingo bull!
Started out with a couple of bulls from Jim Cruikshank of Olds and used quite a bit of Chairman semen as well as some Super Star from him as well. The calves were big at birth but built right!
Also used an AI bull called FSC Willard(I think that was his name) that left some really good calves. Tried a bit of Polled Unlimited and a son... I don't remember the name.
Have used ABS red angus genetics almost exclusively except for one McKenzie bull. Really liked Bootjack.
Used some Sim semen but can't remember all the names! Gelvieh once(the semen was too expensive...but good calves) and Salers(Prince and Rebel) and even used Longhorn on the heifers a couple of years!
Took the AI course back in the early eighties and still keep the AI tank charged even though have not done any AI for a couple of years.(Free nitrogen helps!lol) Taught the boy how to AI myself! AI really isn't very hard. Any idiot can thread a French gun...the tough part is decent heat detection and having a very quiet way of working cattle.

[whiteface]

Funny you say that cowman. I have absolutly no trouble detecting heat and yet am scared to death to take the course or try A.I. myself. I'm actually inspired to rethink that with your comments. A.I. is a very useful tool for herd improvement and something I should likely do much more of. Have always based my program on the best "walking" bulls but like A.I. for a little genetic diversification. Thanks and have a good day!

[poorboy]

I have enjoyed reading this discussion on cattle size and have a couple of questions. If you have a herd of 100 larger cows that wean 600 lb calves, you would need 150 smaller cows that wean 400 lb calves. Would it not be more efficient feeding less larger cows than more smaller cows. It should take less energy to heat one large building instead of 2 smaller buildings because of the reduced outside area. Comparing buildings is not correct, but it is an idea.

Most operators I know of with smaller cattle are also calving later in the spring or early summer, so is the feed cost smaller from the smaller cows, or the later calving?

I am wondering if scientific proof exists that smaller cows with smaller calves are really more efficient than larger cows? Remember, you need more smaller cows. Show me the unbiased proof?

As a side note, does anyone know of any late spring calving herds of large exotic cows, and regular fall weaning times? How do these animals compare to the mid winter calving cows for efficiency?

I personally think that when most people start thinking about their new efficient cattle, that they also made a change in calving dates, winter pasturing, backgrounding calves, etc. It may be the system that is more efficient, not the size of the cows.

[grassfarmer]

Poorboy, that is a very good question - is it the smaller cows that are more efficient or the system under which they are run.
I think most people think of starting a ranch and ask: how many cows can I run? what breed would I like to work with? I know I used to think like that. Now I would start by looking at the ranch - think about its resources and potential output - of grass, crops or whatever are. Also what feeds could I buy cheaply nearby, are there opportunities to graze stubble or bush pasture near by. Then I would fit the kind of cows best suited to harvesting the forages we have available. I think this is what we see when people are making the move to later calving, smaller cows. If you decide you will only ever sell calves in September you might decide to calf in winter.
Either way there is plenty research on the internet, I read up on it before moving here. Alberta Ag website "ropin the web" had the results from a test "simulated effect of cow size on bioeconomic efficiency in cow/calf operations" It compared 990lb, 1210lb and 1430lb cows and showed the middle weight to be the most efficient. I also read work out of the Clay centre, Nebraska showing optimum weight to be around 1000lbs - but that was in range conditions as opposed to a central Alberta "farm" test. I think this does show that must match your genetics to your land/forage type. There is lots of information out there if you can find it.
As a footnote I read recently of a herd of Whitebred Shorthorn X Highland cows in Scotland that weighed only 880lbs that weaned calves 75% of their own weight! -under tough conditions - now that's interesting.

[cswilson]

Whiteface I was gone for a couple days with computer problems-and if you want to buy that semen-e-mail me with an offer-I tell you a funny thing the same purebred breeders that preach about how much a good bull is worth are the biggest whiners and chislers when it comes to buying semen. I have a friend who has some angus semen that I am selling for him for a 100 dollars a pop. He just told me to pull it off the market for the above reasons. Trust me 10 straws of polled hereford semen isn't going to put my kids through college so if you want it make an offer-if you don't shut up about it.

[cswilson]

You can sort out your cow size pretty quick with the feed bucket-we balance our ration for a 1200 lb cow and let the ch-ips fall where they may-we have some heavier cows that are easy keeping but our herd is pretty even-the old sort the thins off for extra feed is kind of rewarding a poor doer. Also if you don't feed the snot out of your replacement females they won't mature into such behemouths.Grassfarmer I guess if a 1200 lb cow is tiny then an 1800 lb cow must be grotesque lol.

[cowman]

cswilson: Got to agree with you about letting the feed bucket sort them out. Life is too short to be playing nursemaid to a bunch of cows! Also the thing about feeding replacement heifers?
Poorboy: You raise some interesting questions and I suspect a big cow can be just as efficient as a small cow. Personally I try to keep them at a reasonable weight because those big cows are just to darned hard to work with. They look nice to the neighbors but not much fun in the chute?
I wonder how much more feed a big cow might eat than a small one? And I wonder if the increase in the salvage value might pick up a good part of that increased lifetime feed cost? An 1800 lb. cow at 50 cents is $900...a 1200 lb. cow at 50 cents is $600? If we put that over 10 calves it comes to $30/yr.? If we assume the big cow is efficient and weans 50%(900 lb. calf) and the small cow(600 lb.) which will make the most money? And there definitely are Sim cows that can wean a 900 lb. calf!
I do believe management and circumstances are more important than cow size. One size does not fit all.