big cattle- little cattle

[poorboy]

I have enjoyed reading this discussion on cattle size and have a couple of questions. If you have a herd of 100 larger cows that wean 600 lb calves, you would need 150 smaller cows that wean 400 lb calves. Would it not be more efficient feeding less larger cows than more smaller cows. It should take less energy to heat one large building instead of 2 smaller buildings because of the reduced outside area. Comparing buildings is not correct, but it is an idea.

Most operators I know of with smaller cattle are also calving later in the spring or early summer, so is the feed cost smaller from the smaller cows, or the later calving?

I am wondering if scientific proof exists that smaller cows with smaller calves are really more efficient than larger cows? Remember, you need more smaller cows. Show me the unbiased proof?

As a side note, does anyone know of any late spring calving herds of large exotic cows, and regular fall weaning times? How do these animals compare to the mid winter calving cows for efficiency?

I personally think that when most people start thinking about their new efficient cattle, that they also made a change in calving dates, winter pasturing, backgrounding calves, etc. It may be the system that is more efficient, not the size of the cows.

[grassfarmer]

Poorboy, that is a very good question - is it the smaller cows that are more efficient or the system under which they are run.
I think most people think of starting a ranch and ask: how many cows can I run? what breed would I like to work with? I know I used to think like that. Now I would start by looking at the ranch - think about its resources and potential output - of grass, crops or whatever are. Also what feeds could I buy cheaply nearby, are there opportunities to graze stubble or bush pasture near by. Then I would fit the kind of cows best suited to harvesting the forages we have available. I think this is what we see when people are making the move to later calving, smaller cows. If you decide you will only ever sell calves in September you might decide to calf in winter.
Either way there is plenty research on the internet, I read up on it before moving here. Alberta Ag website "ropin the web" had the results from a test "simulated effect of cow size on bioeconomic efficiency in cow/calf operations" It compared 990lb, 1210lb and 1430lb cows and showed the middle weight to be the most efficient. I also read work out of the Clay centre, Nebraska showing optimum weight to be around 1000lbs - but that was in range conditions as opposed to a central Alberta "farm" test. I think this does show that must match your genetics to your land/forage type. There is lots of information out there if you can find it.
As a footnote I read recently of a herd of Whitebred Shorthorn X Highland cows in Scotland that weighed only 880lbs that weaned calves 75% of their own weight! -under tough conditions - now that's interesting.

[cswilson]

Whiteface I was gone for a couple days with computer problems-and if you want to buy that semen-e-mail me with an offer-I tell you a funny thing the same purebred breeders that preach about how much a good bull is worth are the biggest whiners and chislers when it comes to buying semen. I have a friend who has some angus semen that I am selling for him for a 100 dollars a pop. He just told me to pull it off the market for the above reasons. Trust me 10 straws of polled hereford semen isn't going to put my kids through college so if you want it make an offer-if you don't shut up about it.

[cswilson]

You can sort out your cow size pretty quick with the feed bucket-we balance our ration for a 1200 lb cow and let the ch-ips fall where they may-we have some heavier cows that are easy keeping but our herd is pretty even-the old sort the thins off for extra feed is kind of rewarding a poor doer. Also if you don't feed the snot out of your replacement females they won't mature into such behemouths.Grassfarmer I guess if a 1200 lb cow is tiny then an 1800 lb cow must be grotesque lol.

[cowman]

cswilson: Got to agree with you about letting the feed bucket sort them out. Life is too short to be playing nursemaid to a bunch of cows! Also the thing about feeding replacement heifers?
Poorboy: You raise some interesting questions and I suspect a big cow can be just as efficient as a small cow. Personally I try to keep them at a reasonable weight because those big cows are just to darned hard to work with. They look nice to the neighbors but not much fun in the chute?
I wonder how much more feed a big cow might eat than a small one? And I wonder if the increase in the salvage value might pick up a good part of that increased lifetime feed cost? An 1800 lb. cow at 50 cents is $900...a 1200 lb. cow at 50 cents is $600? If we put that over 10 calves it comes to $30/yr.? If we assume the big cow is efficient and weans 50%(900 lb. calf) and the small cow(600 lb.) which will make the most money? And there definitely are Sim cows that can wean a 900 lb. calf!
I do believe management and circumstances are more important than cow size. One size does not fit all.

[cowman]

whiteface: If there is one thing you should do it is go take an AI course! A whole lot of fun in my opinion and you'll meet all kinds of interesting people!
However be warned, you just might start having some disturbing thoughts about wanting to try a few new things! Why you might even start to contemplate slipping in some cross breeding on those lower end type of cows in your herd? The scary part is when you see those crossbred calves outgrowing your top calves! Makes you wonder what in the hell you have been doing all those years?
It takes a strong constitution to stick with one breed once you cross that line? LOL

[PureCountry]

poorboy, I must agree with grassfarmer. There's alot of info and research out there if you go looking for it. I did. I started looking for research on low-cost cow-calf production, and I found stuff from most of the research/extension farms in the Northern U.S. and Canada. And all breed-bantering aside, all of the research concluded that you have to match your land and ITS attributes with a system that suits it. And in all of that research, the common result was calving in late-spring or summer with moderate sized cowherds -under 1400lbs.- was ON AVERAGE the highest profit system.

It makes sense for me because of our landbase and the grass we can grow. We need 15-20 acres per cow-calf pair, and those are rough acres. It goes from sand and cactus on the North end to canyons and basins you can't walk up on the South end. 1800lb. cows of any breed have not lasted long.

And with my cows, the smaller I've gone, the more efficient they seem. My 1200lb. Angus/Shorthorn cows wean off calves at 600lbs. consistently. My 15-1600lb. cows do it, but not year in and year out. And the law of averages will say that the 1200lber will eat less, too. So, draw you own conclusion I guess, but I would highly recommend looking up some of that research.

Ropin' the web, foragebeef.ca, galloway.ca, chcs.ca, all have some good stuff. And the guys at Olds college that run the steer-a-year trial can tell you some interesting stuff, too.

[greybeard]

I may be wrong, but I think most rations are based on 2% of body weight.
The other important consideration is fertility. I see that as the difference in weight between your youngest calf and your oldest calf when they come home in the fall. Of course the ones that come home open don’t weigh anything. Those big cows need a much better ration to conceive, and any compromise can cause a wreck. I think Cory already said this when he says “sort with the feed pail”.
Now some genetics don’t need to be as well fed to conceive. I had 2 old ½ Holsteins I used to raise orphans and twins. Those old cows raised a lot of beef for me and always calved in the first cycle. They always looked terrible skinny, but had huge capacity. The 2 of them could eat ½ a bale by themselves. One came home open 2 years ago, but the one I have left must be 12 . She will be in the first group again this year.

[cswilson]

We got one bunch of cows 170 head in it-and my kids old Jersey cow is running with them-these cows are licking snow and getting run a bit tough-but it's funny to watch some of those angus's -EXT's mostly-hollowing out and that skinny old Jersey keeps soldiering on-I figure those Angus should be making out like bandits compared to her-she only raised three calves last summer-orphans, twins etc.