bass ackwards heterosis...

[smcgrath76]

Glad to see a conversation about this.
I think what triggered my original post is some work I have been doing looking at genetic variation within breeds (or the range of variation). Using a bit of trickery with some information from USDA-MARC it is pretty interesting to see the "genetic overlap" in the major breeds. In other words, it appears somewhat that many breeders in every breed are selecting for the same things, even though their breeds "should?" more than likely be used for specific purposes. For example, there is a lot of overlap in milk genetics between terminal type breeds and maternal type breeds. I don't think this is a great surprise, but for us at home, our terminal bulls better not have a high milk number, as I would rather have muscle growth than milk production. It is also interesting to see breeds that are passing other breeds for traits that we consider the strengths of the breeds that are being passed. Has anyone looked at Milk numbers in Angus cattle lately?
Pretty much I agree with most of the comments posted above, but it is interesting to see how things are done, versus how we think they should be done.
Perhaps the biggest problem we face as an industry (RKaiser aside) is that even if we select on the information we know about our cattle (measured efficiency, growth, net return, etc.) most of us still sell our calves visually in large groups, or even in presort sales.
Basically, we put effort into selecting cattle that work and then just turn into a ring and say "These ones are pretty/shiny/taller/thicker so please bid an extra 5 cents."
A bit oversimplified, but certainly a goofy way to sell a product. I think that perhaps this is why we are seeing auction market volumes decline over the last several years. Certainly shows the difference between value added and commodity production.

[raymondb]

farmers-son--Do you know who your real customer is? My first line customer is not the consumer as I do not sell directly to the consumer. I am not smart enough or have the time or inclination to raise beef, finish beef,process and wrap beef and then sell the finished product after I put it on a shelf with enough lighting and color to make the consumer happy. I do the cow/calf thing and my main customer is the feedlot or the cattle broker. I talk to my customer and raise what he wants.My buyer gives me a price that I am satisfied with because I meet his needs. Yes I know what my customer wants.

[farmers_son]

And I would say that what your customer wants is to make money. Part of that is buying your cattle cheap.

There is a saying that when a customer buys a drill bit that is what he does, but what he wants is a hole.

smcgrath76: When you say it is a goofy way to sell a product, you need to keep in mind who is the seller. In the auction, the seller is the auctioneer, the fellow with the cattle in the ring is the prospect. The product is not cattle but rather image and "feel good" for the producer who wants to go home with a good feeling about his worth as a cattleman. Bearing in mind what the "product" is, i.e. "feel good" the auction ring is an effective way to sell a product.

Getting back to weight of cow, the weight of a cow is an excellent indicator of the weight of the cow and nothing else.

[raymondb]

Farmers-son--my customer better be making money because if he was not making money , I would run out of customers. I am making money with my cattle so both me and my customer are happy. If I am able to make money and still sell my cattle cheap, I must be doing something right. I thank you for the compliment.

My old and slow mind missed the analogy with the drill and hole thing-I appologize.

[kpb]

raymondb, you have hit the nail on the head. Your customer, and the customer of every producer who sells his calves rather than backgrounding (the majority) is the buyer, backgrounder or feedlot man. I see a lot of talk on here about producing a calf that the consumer wants and that's fine but if you don't have a big enough cow to give me a calf that I can feed well over the winter you're not going to get a good price in the fall no matter how your product eventually looks to the consumer. The bottom line is that the calf has to gain quickly and I think that your cow better churn out calves that the buyers in the fall want (ones that grow fast) or you're always going to be a dime behind. And that, no matter how efficient your cows are, means less money for you.

[redcountry]

with all the talk of breeds the point missed is that in the end the only thing a calf producer wants is a fast growing calf.
that said, does anyone know what breed or breed crosses will consistantly produce a calf that will finish within 20 months
Is it all in rations fed? or is it breed combinations and the way one crosses these breeds.
one cannot change his cow herd at every (flavor of the month) but by changing his bull he can change his calf crop in one season.
I learned a lesson on crossbreeding the hard way
I bought a herd of simm cows half were crossbred semm/tarentaise a real good producer and pretty to look at.
we met a tarentaise breeder and ordered some heifers, their calves look nothing like the crosses we bought (we should have bought a bull)
"lesson learned"
Today with having to meet the age (tooth) requirements of UTM what breeds or cross is best meeting the needs,anyone breeding for slow tooth eruption

[whiteface]

I fully expect to get yelled at for this but take it with a grain of salt eh...
I was told once that the only thing a Charolais cow was good for was raising a Charolais bull ( for terminal, good feeding, fast gaining, muscle calves for any of you who might not get it! ) so I will go out on a limb and say not only will I largely agree with that (meaning a straight Charolais cowherd would not be the most efficient way to go regardless of how much that particular "breed" might contribute to quality calves)and also that the only thing some "maternal" breeds would be good for (breeds made and promoted as being "milky", good moms, grass efficient, likely don't have the jam to produce pounds PAST WEANING (everyone get that statement!!! A lot of these fat good looking calves in the fall are done, especially if the're from maternal breeds and won't grow and perform in the feedlot on grain.
So I would go so far as to say that if a Charolais cow is good only for producing a Charolais bull, in my mind it stands to reason that a Tarentaise (or Hereford or Pinzguar or any thing promoted as the "mother of all cattle" is only good for that, being a mom, don't expect much for feedlot performance, or a premium for your calves, unless you take the best of both worlds and cross maternal with terminal, 'stead of trying to "do it all" with one breed, can't be done, they all have soething to contribute as much as all of us have something to contribute to the quality of each breed we dabble in. Just my opinion, don't blast me too much. Have a good night all!

[kpb]

whiteface, you are right on the mark. I agree with everything you said in your last post, nothing more to add.

kpb

[blackjack]

...whiteface... also agree with your last post...I even have some of those whitefaces...bought 30 good herdford range cows in 93...still have 22 and they still have decent feet,eyes and bags...lol...have several of their daughters in the herd today...
this past fall bought some 3rd and 4th calving white charolais ave. wt. 1450...backgrounding my own calves... I like kpb want the growing capabilities of an exotic cross...

[cowman]

Or you can take it one step further and use an F1 female of two maternal breeds and breed that to a terminal breed. Not really that hard to do as there are always some guys who want to breed quality baldies?
Or a novel idea? AI the top 40% of your cows to a maternal breed. Breed the rest to a terminal breed and clean up the AI cows with the terminal bull. Sell all the terminal calves and keep the AI heifers? Switch AI breeds every couple of years and you will be able to maintain a crossbred cow herd...which is way superior to a straightbred herd.
Sure would be nice if they could come up with sexed semen wouldn't it? At one time there was quite a bit of work going on sexing semen but haven't heard anything lately?
Just think you could AI your best cows to have maternal heifers and all the rest to have crossbred terminal steers! Now that might just perk up the old AI business!

[whiteface]

I always thought I had some pretty good herefords...listened closely to what the buyers were asking for and more to the point what they would actually pay for. Living in this high rent district of Alberta and just my concieted nature wanted as much for my calves as I was capable of genetically engineering...and the only way to get that is not a sales pitch but actually making for the customer what they demand...they know what they want. I've stayed purebred for a couple of reasons, the biggest one being the ego maniac that I am, I enjoy showing, keeping track of pedigrees, studying closely the lines that work and ones that don't and believe it or not, haveing sold bulls and now groups of females into commercial and sometimes "straight bred" herds of different breeds and seeing the results of what you all were talking about F1 calves off my purebred cows is stunning beyond belief. A lot of reward for me comeing from that sector in the last few years. I guess that's been my biggest awakening in the battle of the breeds, that even though I think my cattle are pretty good, can they ever do a lot better with a little "help" from an exotic mix while still being safe to work around, gentle on chutes and other equipment and economical to keep as well. Got a call from a man in Saskatchewan yesterday who has bought several groups of females and has had his neighbors over recently that "can't beleive those are straight-bred herefords." He looks like a hero haveing taken a chance on those whitefaces in straight-exotic grain country. There's good and bad in every breed, the goal is to bring the best out of what your breed offers and try to clean up the crap that they are bad for.
Like the bad eyes, bad feet, bad udders and the dreaded prolapse in herefords...
There still is some of that around, just some of us work our behinds off to win back our valued customers.
Thanks for the vote of confidence you guys and have a good day!

[rkaiser]

Good stuff Whitey!