Longevity

[grassfarmer]

Longevity is one thing I think most producers and experts overlook. Pre BSE if you reared a heifer for your herd by the time she calved she probably had cost you $1150. If cull cows were bringing $700 that's a $450 depreciation
to spread over an average 8 calves = $56 per calf.
Now a heifer probably still costs $1000 to calf out - but the culls are only worth $250 that's a $750 depreciation or $93 per head on 8 calves.
Imagine in either scenario boosting your longevity by 4 calves - roughly the same depreciation cost spread over 12 calves instead of 8. You will see that this reduces depreciation per calf by $20 and $30 respectively. Over every cow in a herd, every year, that adds up.
So while others are looking for the "Igenity" gene I'm content to be working with a breed with the
"longevity" gene.
Got 3 Luing bulls in line now, two half brothers plus the son of one of them. Their dams are calving this spring at 19, 18 and 18 years old. Time will tell but I think we should be able to build in some formidable longevity with this trio.

[charliep]

grassfarmer you have WAY too much time to spend working on these numbers !!!
I agree that longevity is a trait to breed for, particularly when we consider how important cow families are in any operation. I have a cow that is 14, and have five of her daughters in the herd. She has produced a couple of excellent herd sires in her career, and her daughters have her fertility, milking ability and are sound, excellent dispositioned females that are at the top of my herd.
Interestingly enough I bred her black limo for the past four seasons and have had two black and two red calves. She is a dark red fullblood limo cow. I am hoping she has a black heifer this year as I am sure it will be her last one , she is starting to show her years.
I have a five year old that is a great grandaughter to one of our foundation limo cows. The great granddam was in the herd until she was 16, the granddam was 17 when I shipped her, and the dam was 14 when she was put down due to cancer. The five year old has only had one heifer calf the rest have been bulls, but her three year old daughter is in the herd.
I do think that most of us have a few old gals around that should have been gone but BSE gave them a few more years.

[nicolaas]

Longevity sounds like a good end result, but I'm new at this game (no more than 6 years- so i'm still learning) I've still got some original cows though. I figure longevity is a good part of the equation, good sound bulls and cow fertility being the others. If a cowman does not limit his breeding season to max. of 3 cycles, pregcheck and at least cull for fertility, he is leaving alot of money on the table. By keeping back first cycle heifers as replacements, I believe the longevity of the herd has a good chance of increasing as well. I took quite a bath on the cull cows, but so has everyone else in these bad times (and it was cheaper than feeding the opens over the winter, or rebreeding them and getting substandard calves-after all, they were open for a reason)

[nicolaas]

in my herd fertility and longevity go hand in hand. If a cow isn't fertile, a good easy calving, good milking female she doesn't have a chance to chalk up longevity here !!!
The good old reliable cows don't owe us much in my view. They usually raise replacement females that are predictable and carry on the desired traits.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald1, yeah,I've got some time to work on business management - I let the cows do the work and don't calve in winter which sure frees up time.
I'm sure everyone has old individual cows in their herds but I was talking more of trying to breed a herd where the average cow lives to an old age. Aiming to be 4 calves beyond the average cow in other peoples herds would give me an advantage and I think it is possible - with the right genetics.

[grassfarmer]

That may work grassfarmer as long as you consider the cow expendable once she reaches the end of her productivity, and aren't concerned about marketing her as a bred female.

Anyone calving right now in this area is really enjoying the nice weather vs freezing their butts off...but that could change.

[cowman]

I know a guy who sells his cows at eight years old(pre BSE...not sure about now) He figures they probably definitely have a few more good calves in them, but the economics of how he does it made sense?
They basically still look real good and fetch some pretty decent prices as bred cows...actually more than his heifer replacement cost! He used to sell them in the fall cow sales.

[whiteface]

I certainly appreciate a cows ability to live trouble free and produce well into her teens and close to 20 is impressive indeed. I will say however, that while I do hope it works in your favor grass farmer, you are the exception not the rule and most people succum to the industry pressure of keeping the cowherd young, especially with BSE floating around. Young cows are the cutting edge of genetic progress, also any way you slice it in terms of productivity, if she is that productive as a grandma cow, she was definatly more productive as a mom, meaning we all lose some capacity to contribute with age and if she's a great cow, it would stand to reason that her daughters would be "better" otherwise she doesn't count as great at least in my eyes. Probably even more so with purebred cattle is the unbelievable pressure to own the next generation as it stands to reason that if we're doing our job we're getting better with each generation not worse or sideways so a cow's calf technically should be worth more than she is.
I agree also that it is not only very possible but an economically good decision to keep a cow to just past her prime and re-sell her while she still looks pretty good to the buyers. I've done very, very well with prime straight-bred hereford cows at public auction. The buyers love them, they can breed them to anything and get a saleable calf without worrying about endangering their family in the process. (battle of the breeds again - herefords rule for docility!)
At least this proceedure has boded quite well for me.
One of the very best cows I own is 17 this year, has had a calf that I have registered every year and last fall her son was one of my top sellers at $3100.00 (yes, for a baby!) and I think the world of this female. She'll be buried here with her own headstone. In the purebred world though, very few people appreciate her, she's sired by a bull that the industry has "long past by" and I find her calves have a very limited market on a good day. Only the odd person really cares about longevity, the pressure is more the cutting edge and I really get their reasons why.
Have a good day all from whitey!

[grassfarmer]

Whiteface "most people succum to the industry pressure of keeping the cowherd young, especially with BSE floating around." - more fool them, I say. This is what purecountry calls another "profit opportunity."
It makes no ecomomic sense to cull cows at 8 or 10 years and replace them with unknown genetics. You may think you are breeding better replacements every generation but there are duds in every calf crop - ones that won't breed, won't calf, won't flesh, won't milk so why trade something you know for something you don't? "Industry pressure?" ie "industry fashion" not business sense.
Cowman or Emrald what proportion of commercial cow/calf producers do you reckon market their older cows as good breds as opposed to culls? It's an interesting idea but I don't know how common it is.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer when bred cow prices were good, a lot of older cows were sold as bred cattle and fetched a pretty good dollar if their feet and udders were still in good shape.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I doubt many outfits would have the discipline to do this? Lets face it an eight year old cow probably is producing a calf that is pretty good?
Or even a ten year old cow.
However, quite often, a cow starts to decline in production right around that ten year mark and I would say between 10 and 14 culling is close to being total? If you keep that cow past ten years old you can only expect canner prices.
But consider that a cow who has 12 calves(14 yrs old) has cost you in depreciation $450? Probably the last couple of calves were not as good as the rest? Then consider the 8 year old (6 calves) with no depreciation?
It can make sense from a purely economic perspective, especially if you are raising cows that the market demands. Now if you can predict what the "flavor of the month" will be eight years in advance then you will ring the bell at the cow sale! And no, I don't follow my own advice...I keep them as long as they are getting the job done.

[cswilson]

Have you ever noticed how the best old cows kind of get old without you noticing-kind of like your wife -your looking at her one day thinking how good she looks when you realize she's same age as you are. The good ones are like that all of a sudden you start counting off the calves and realize she's got some age on her. Horses are the same too-it didn't dawn on me tillmy daughter turned 16 that 4 or 5 of my better horses were same age.

[kpb]

sometimes I wonder how any of us with cows ever make money. This thread got me thinking of how the guys who bought bred heifers at $1,200 or $1,300 before all this BSE stuff happened are ever going to get out alive. If you figure that heifer has eight calves, on average, which is likely high given that a few will die, some not calve sometime, etc. then that is $125 per calf depreciation per year assuming a cull price of $250.
Now if you breed the old bat at eight and then sell her bred rather than as a cull then maybe you'll get more? I don't know if you will get more for very much longer in this market--you're basically assuming that whoever buys her is dumber than yourself, right? Because you thought she was a cull.
I'm not sure that there's going to be enough dumb farmers left to buy all these culls that we're trying to sell as good bred cows when they turn eight years old. And depriciation of $125 per calf--If everything goes right and she calves every year for eight year--man that is a killer hole to get out of.

[cowman]

Well I would suggest that this present crisis won't last forever and by the time that $1300 heifer is sold at ten or twelve years old she'll be worth more than $250?
Were we all dumb for buying those old eight year old culls? Remember that before BSE and the drought we were in a pretty hot market? And ALL our heifers were worth that $1300(or a lot more) in 2002! Whether we raised them or bought them...that was what they were worth?
Old cows bought at near meat prices were a very good buy if you raised one calf and turfed them? Example: I bought 6 BIG exotic older calves in 2000 for $800 a piece. Last sale of the year Dec. 22(tax problems!). Calved out in February, one set of twins. Sold the calves in that $1.25-$1.30 range in that 700 lb. range. Sold all 6 cows after the calves went in late November 2001. Averaged $780 net on them. What did I have in them? 130 days on feed and pasture? So I lost $20 and maybe $200 for feed? Payback of over $900 minus $220 or close to $700? Not too bad of an investment? Actually better than keeping those pricy heifers?
No one can predict that something like BSE will hit us. Or a tornado or whatever? If we tried to factor in all the possible wrecks that might happen in our lives, we'd never get anything done? These last few years have been pretty ugly for sure. And some guys won't survive this wreck, but for the ones who do, they will come out tougher and they will see good times again.
I do believe you know this kpb? The fundamentals of feeding cattle this winter are pretty positive, border open or border closed?

[kpb]

cowman, you're right of course and thanks for jogging my memory of life before BSE--it can get a little frustrating trying to deal with the ongoing politics. Feeding calves this winter has been very, very good as we've discussed before. And, actually, that's what prompted my comment because we also have a cow herd and I got to thinking about how bred heifers have a built-in high depriciation level. That's a lot of depreciation for those calves to carry with post-BSE calf prices.
However, as you pointed out, if we return to normal on our cull cow price, the depreciation isnt so bad. Now as you know I suggested last fall that everyone go out and buy as many feeders as they could and they would make money. If I recall properly, you thought this was a good strategy too. But at this time I think everyone should buy cow-calf pairs-the uglier the cow the better (cheaper). These pairs are too cheap right now (say $550)--the calf will pay for everything in the fall and the cow will be a freebee. If cull prices go back to .40 there's good money there for a fat cow off pasture. I'm not suggesting buying breds because who knows what problems you'll have calving--but a pair with all the work done. I think that's a good plan if you've got some grass--better than grassers right now--and I think it'll net $400--what do you think cowman?