this is progress?

[nicolaas]

Here is another suggestion. I guess we could push for a "tax" collected at the supermarket for all meats, grain and produce sold that can be produced in Canada. This money would be collected like the GST and sent back to the producer, who through their CWB books (need similar books set up for production in non board grains, cattle, lettuce, etc)show the amount and quality of goods grown on farm. That way we can share in some of the value added wealth and the packers would be unaffected??? (The packers would probably just discount the purchase price to producers just to be contrary). Probabley won't fly though as the consumer wants cheap food, and it would look like a tarrif on imports.(Isn't the U.S doing this to pork right now?) You think the americans hate the CWB now, imagine their anti-dumping cases for all ag sectors if this came about. It would be cheaper than direct subsidies though, and would reward efficient farmers (unlike a quota system). The other thing that nails us is the cost of production. Fertilizer, equipment, fuel etc. keep going up, and we can't do anything about that. One thing that can be looked at is the price of land. There is too many examples of prime ag land being swallowed up for non agricultural purposes. We need to do something about this. Trying to pay for land these days with cows (even pre-BSE did not pencil out that well) is next to impossible for young upstarts, hence the off-farm jobs. It turns into a viscious cycle. I know the older guys that are retiring love it, but I just thought I'd find out what other peoples thoughts are on this issue. Should there be some sort of zoning rules?

[Bez]

Too many tangents here. Grain and pricing. Zoning - being met with what may soon be violence in Ontario. Land pricing. Profits of the middleman. And so on and so on. Europe and their subsidies.

One problem at a time. The profitability of cows in Canada. I am still of the opinion we can:

1. Massive cull.
2. Supply management of COWS.
3. Tax food - if there is a possibility to control packer reducing the price.
4. Make it illegal for packers to directly own ANY cattle.
5. Sell from single desk or provincial desk - similar to wheat board.

Or whatever.

In the end I am one who appears to be ready to look at all options and I think I may be one of the few that has not come up with the negatives on this thread.

I personally do not care what is being done outside the borders of this country. I care about what happens here. It is up to US to make the difference.

That may mean we actually have to show up at a meeting and VOTE. Seems like it is starting in some areas of Canada - but NOT where it matters. The west has to lead the change.

How many participated in the ABP elections?

It always has to start at the grassroots level, but change will NEVER take place until it is demanded by the voters.

Those ag leaders (Leaders?) are treated like royalty in some parts of Canada and after a while get far to cozy with the politicians in my view.

Bez

[WoolyBear]

ZONING.......... while I believe in the rational that it has been designed to control (the spread of disease like Hoof and Mouth), I can also see it becoming a problem of politics. Ever wonder why Ontario and Quebec are the BIGGEST proponents of this idea? Just imagine if they were able to use zoning to open up their markets and further exclude Alberta and or Western Canada because of BSE?

ALSO can you imagine how quickly the BSE problem would become another Western issue that Ottawa would forget about? Its bad enough the response time we're seeing out of Ottawa in regards to all of the suggestions for aid, packer expansion and such, imagine if they didn't have to look out their front door to see how its affecting Canadian farmers. Its so easy for eastern Canada to not see beyond the bush of Northern Ontario

PS...... still haven't seen ANY response from Ottawa in regards to their share of the Other Ruminant programs.......

[grassfarmer]

15444,
"Our ancestors left the Old World to carve out a New World where freedom rules, industry could grow and there was no limit to the amount of money a man could make."
Don't you see how things have come full circle in the New world? The system evolving here is a mirror image of the old Europe - Canada is a poor colony with it's people reduced to serfdom living in poverty while the foreign empire (the US)exploits our resources. As this thread title began - this is progress?

[Bez]

WoolyBear writes and I respond:

"ZONING.......... while I believe in the rational that it has been designed to control (the spread of disease like Hoof and Mouth), I can also see it becoming a problem of politics. Ever wonder why Ontario and Quebec are the BIGGEST proponents of this idea?"

I do not get it - Zoning to proect markets from BSE? As I am from the hated "east" I would ask what are you talking about? I obviously have never heard of this or I would not ask.

Hope you are not mentioning the hated Green Belt around Toronto - it is pounding and ruining ag folks here and therefore not something we take lightly.

"Just imagine if they were able to use zoning to open up their markets and further exclude Alberta and or Western Canada because of BSE?"

Is this another red herring to throw us off topic? Once again I am left bewildered.

If you are talking about our once ag minister suggesting that Canada be divided, I would suggest YOU remember that it was us ag people down here in the land of fruits and nuts that stood up for YOU - and I might add I did not see any assistance from the west (admittedly there might have been). No thanks from you guys - but it was US that made her stand down - we know it does not work by dividing a country.

"ALSO can you imagine how quickly the BSE problem would become another Western issue that Ottawa would forget about?"

Gimme a break - not going to happen - and you can thank the Ontario ag crowd for that. While you seem overly protectionistic, ag is a national problem - not regionalistic - we know that down here and would love a little assistance. What are YOU doing to help out?

"Its bad enough the response time we're seeing out of Ottawa in regards to all of the suggestions for aid, packer expansion and such, imagine if they didn't have to look out their front door to see how its affecting Canadian farmers."

We have the same probs here - trust me it is no better here.

"Its so easy for eastern Canada to not see beyond the bush of Northern Ontario"

Having been involved in ag all my life - Alberta, Sask and Ont I can tell you that all you are doing is driving wedges between allies.

"PS...... still haven't seen ANY response from Ottawa in regards to their share of the Other Ruminant programs......."

That has been addressed at our meetings here - unsuccessfully - Ont ag folks also are involved with "other ruminants" and hurting as badly as those in the west.

So to get back on topic - any comments about the things I mentioned a couple of posts ago - or do we simply divide ourselves and allow others to continue the conquest of ag?

I think I will back out of this thread - it is deteriorating. I now understand why guys like Randy K. are tired and beat up - lots of steam but little directed push from those who COULD make a difference.

regards

Bez

[15444]

Grassfarmer,

There is nothing stopping anyone on this continent from rising to the top. You just have to be ruthless and greedy enough to put the money above everything else. Some people do, some people don't. Most people in agriculture can't relate to someone putting the money above the well being of others because 'greedy' isn't usually associated with 'farmers'?


You say that the New World is turning into the Old World. I can agree with that. Farmers in the Old World left and are continuing to leave to this day because of regulations and a basic lack of freedom because they never allied and formed a mega conglomeration to represent the raw materials of the food chain. The same ones that left are the same ones and their descendents who don't want to take ruthless control of their raw materials in the New World, and as a result, are currently, and will be ruled by what consumer groups want (low price) and what the industry wants (high efficiency and all the money from the chain).

[WoolyBear]

Sorry Bez....... the zoning comments were an obtuse tangent (or something like that). It was a topic of discussion on coffee shop row that a neighbour was involved in. Only repeating what was said.

Sorry.

[magpie]

UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL !!! Not a good time to be driving wedges Farmers who are within the TB area of Mb know what zoning is all about . BSE affects all participants coast to coast and must stay a national priority and kept front and center.