this is progress?

[kpb]

grassfarmer, I too was being genuine when I asked what the situation is in Europe and UK for beef producers because I don't know. You said that overseas the producer is topped up with subsidies on the animals he sells at below cost--does this give him a decent living? And, secondly, are there barriers to entry for new producers or is everyone who produces a calf eligible for a subsidy?
grassfarmer, since BSE the packer has been making an obscene profit--I think we all agree with that. But I think the problems with our industry run even deeper than that. The fact is that even before BSE, even when we all actually made some money, we were still not getting a decent return on the capital we have invested. This is a hugely capital intensive business and I think we need to devise a system that we control that enables us to make a decent return on capital.
I recognize that no one owes us a living and I recognize that no one says we have to be ranchers or that we are owed a profit. But this is our industry and we could, if we wanted, gain control of it from the calf on the ground to the meat in the stores. That's what I think should happen--we should control our product from the field to the store. I think supply management is a part of that, so is owning our own packing houses and our own retail outlets. And in case anyone thinks that is too socialist consider this--all big businesses and multi's in this country are trying to do just what I suggest we do as a block--they are trying to own their production through contracted beef or other raw materials, right through to the consumer. And they want to control the supply and the price of that product whether it be gas at the pumps or beef in the stores. So why are so many of us so opposed to this when I suggest we grab the whole pie for ourselves and make some money rather than giving it to everyone else?


kpb

[grassfarmer]

kpb, UK producers aren't making a decent living either. Same problems as here - non farmers are buying up the land - farmers can't afford it, hard to see where the next generation of farmers will come from. New entrants are virtually non-existant since the late 1980s - it is much easier to get a start in Canada than in the UK. Quota prices and high land costs make entry impossible although beef and sheep quotas are being abolished shortly.
Some of the other European countries look after their producers better - notably France, like Quebec a different culture and way of thinking to their neighbours.
The Germans made a big policy change,in Fall 2003 I think,when they decided to no longer pursue the "global marketplace" but to supply their domestic market after realising that they could secure a more sustainable future for their producers this way. They realised that global marketing is merely transfering wealth from a huge number of rural producers into the hands of a few multi-national corporations. Germany has a huge population which Canada hasn't, relative to their land base, but I think that is a great move in the right direction.

I agree with the rest of your post - the middlemen are taking all the profit out of the job. We are just suggesting different ways of tackling the problems I think.
I have tried a little of the pasture to plate deal and can see the potential of it. Equally there is not room for us all to do that and many don't want to. Personally if we could make the commodity system work so that producers got a fair return I would much prefer sticking to the production side of beef rather than the processing and marketing sides.
I think we agree that Government has to be woken up and made to intervene somehow - I just think tackling the processors head on is the quickest and most direct method. I don't think it will be easy.

[cropduster]

Grassfarmer.......YOU ARE WRONG !!(re: bread)Western farmers supposedly have a monopoly in their grain sales.Why don`t they just demand higher prices??DDUUHH. Because they have to sell into a world market.Malsters,if offended at domestic prices,simply import their supplies,as they`ve done recently.The large packing companies invested here because of profit.If you wish to nationalize them, that will be the ceiling on free enterprise development forever.The `invisible hand` of supply/ demand will be adversely affected ,in the long term ,to the industries disadvantage.

[grassfarmer]

Am I wrong? Western grain growers have a near monopoly marketing body (CWB)but continually get shafted by a handful of bigger, more powerful transnational corporations. If we tackled these pirates the returns producers get would rise. Why shouldn't grain growers aim to get 10 cents instead of 5 cents off each $1.40 loaf that is sold? If you argue the free market will sort everything out good luck to you. There will be less producers left every year - because of value theft from the production chain by processors. I understand many think they are getting the same price for barley they got 20 years ago because of a world oversupply of grain - yet world stocks are at their lowest level since the 70s. We have got to get smarter and get organised as producers if we are to survive.

[15444]

'Get smarter and get organized'...now your thinking in the right direction grassfarmer.

Ok grassfarmer...you have to understand how North America works. Our ancestors left the Old World to carve out a New World where freedom rules, industry could grow and there was no limit to the amount of money a man could make. These principles carry on to this very day when we see CEO's and Presidents of multinational and national corporations rake in big bucks, politicians get big bucks, executives for every single retail business, etc. etc. That's the nuts and bolts...cut another guy's throat and climb over his body to the top. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, although there is a growing portion of the population that wants to limit that part of society...which is basically the fabric and soul of America. Do we go that route? It's going against the very principles of capitalism...which is North America.

Now, the problem in agriculture is that all producers are willing to cut the legs from underneath each other before they could ever consider forming a single powerful group to represent their interests. You have big groups representing packers, AMI or CMA. You have big groups representing consumers. But what about agriculture? Nothing. Bunch of organizations that fight for memberships and checkoff money. So agriculture whines and screams for government to limit the capitalistic nature of the market.

Government isn't in this country to solve anyone’s money problems. Maybe in the Old World with subsidies, but in the New World the government's sole job is to make sure that the people's way of life isn't threatened and that certain core systems are in place. Those groups that don't fit these criteria get to fight it out in a battle of the fittest. Don't kid yourself, agriculture is not part of this group. At one point in our country's history it was, but we now operate in a global market where products can be brought in at a person's whim if someone in the chain gets too pissy about their prices.

Certain companies have been able to avoid this entire system: with unions like Canadian Auto Workers in Bombardier, Air Canada, the Auto companies in Ontario and Quebec etc etc...or if government gets a healthy kickback for their goodwill efforts to keep poor companies going. Agriculture can’t even return the benefit of subsidies through giving election seats to government because the Feds don’t need rural votes to win elections.

But the true heart of this system lies in the Walmart who doesn't take union threats in Quebec with a grain of salt, or Buhler Industries in Winnipeg that threatened to pull out because of employee demands a few years back. I am actually very surprised that companies like Swift haven’t came to Canada yet and built packing plants. When they do, don’t expect them to push for an open border. Nothing better for a CEO then the feeling of taking a swim in a sea of green paper as they screw the little guy. Ah...Capitalism...don’t yah just love it!.

[nicolaas]

Here is another suggestion. I guess we could push for a "tax" collected at the supermarket for all meats, grain and produce sold that can be produced in Canada. This money would be collected like the GST and sent back to the producer, who through their CWB books (need similar books set up for production in non board grains, cattle, lettuce, etc)show the amount and quality of goods grown on farm. That way we can share in some of the value added wealth and the packers would be unaffected??? (The packers would probably just discount the purchase price to producers just to be contrary). Probabley won't fly though as the consumer wants cheap food, and it would look like a tarrif on imports.(Isn't the U.S doing this to pork right now?) You think the americans hate the CWB now, imagine their anti-dumping cases for all ag sectors if this came about. It would be cheaper than direct subsidies though, and would reward efficient farmers (unlike a quota system). The other thing that nails us is the cost of production. Fertilizer, equipment, fuel etc. keep going up, and we can't do anything about that. One thing that can be looked at is the price of land. There is too many examples of prime ag land being swallowed up for non agricultural purposes. We need to do something about this. Trying to pay for land these days with cows (even pre-BSE did not pencil out that well) is next to impossible for young upstarts, hence the off-farm jobs. It turns into a viscious cycle. I know the older guys that are retiring love it, but I just thought I'd find out what other peoples thoughts are on this issue. Should there be some sort of zoning rules?

[Bez]

Too many tangents here. Grain and pricing. Zoning - being met with what may soon be violence in Ontario. Land pricing. Profits of the middleman. And so on and so on. Europe and their subsidies.

One problem at a time. The profitability of cows in Canada. I am still of the opinion we can:

1. Massive cull.
2. Supply management of COWS.
3. Tax food - if there is a possibility to control packer reducing the price.
4. Make it illegal for packers to directly own ANY cattle.
5. Sell from single desk or provincial desk - similar to wheat board.

Or whatever.

In the end I am one who appears to be ready to look at all options and I think I may be one of the few that has not come up with the negatives on this thread.

I personally do not care what is being done outside the borders of this country. I care about what happens here. It is up to US to make the difference.

That may mean we actually have to show up at a meeting and VOTE. Seems like it is starting in some areas of Canada - but NOT where it matters. The west has to lead the change.

How many participated in the ABP elections?

It always has to start at the grassroots level, but change will NEVER take place until it is demanded by the voters.

Those ag leaders (Leaders?) are treated like royalty in some parts of Canada and after a while get far to cozy with the politicians in my view.

Bez

[WoolyBear]

ZONING.......... while I believe in the rational that it has been designed to control (the spread of disease like Hoof and Mouth), I can also see it becoming a problem of politics. Ever wonder why Ontario and Quebec are the BIGGEST proponents of this idea? Just imagine if they were able to use zoning to open up their markets and further exclude Alberta and or Western Canada because of BSE?

ALSO can you imagine how quickly the BSE problem would become another Western issue that Ottawa would forget about? Its bad enough the response time we're seeing out of Ottawa in regards to all of the suggestions for aid, packer expansion and such, imagine if they didn't have to look out their front door to see how its affecting Canadian farmers. Its so easy for eastern Canada to not see beyond the bush of Northern Ontario

PS...... still haven't seen ANY response from Ottawa in regards to their share of the Other Ruminant programs.......

[grassfarmer]

15444,
"Our ancestors left the Old World to carve out a New World where freedom rules, industry could grow and there was no limit to the amount of money a man could make."
Don't you see how things have come full circle in the New world? The system evolving here is a mirror image of the old Europe - Canada is a poor colony with it's people reduced to serfdom living in poverty while the foreign empire (the US)exploits our resources. As this thread title began - this is progress?

[Bez]

WoolyBear writes and I respond:

"ZONING.......... while I believe in the rational that it has been designed to control (the spread of disease like Hoof and Mouth), I can also see it becoming a problem of politics. Ever wonder why Ontario and Quebec are the BIGGEST proponents of this idea?"

I do not get it - Zoning to proect markets from BSE? As I am from the hated "east" I would ask what are you talking about? I obviously have never heard of this or I would not ask.

Hope you are not mentioning the hated Green Belt around Toronto - it is pounding and ruining ag folks here and therefore not something we take lightly.

"Just imagine if they were able to use zoning to open up their markets and further exclude Alberta and or Western Canada because of BSE?"

Is this another red herring to throw us off topic? Once again I am left bewildered.

If you are talking about our once ag minister suggesting that Canada be divided, I would suggest YOU remember that it was us ag people down here in the land of fruits and nuts that stood up for YOU - and I might add I did not see any assistance from the west (admittedly there might have been). No thanks from you guys - but it was US that made her stand down - we know it does not work by dividing a country.

"ALSO can you imagine how quickly the BSE problem would become another Western issue that Ottawa would forget about?"

Gimme a break - not going to happen - and you can thank the Ontario ag crowd for that. While you seem overly protectionistic, ag is a national problem - not regionalistic - we know that down here and would love a little assistance. What are YOU doing to help out?

"Its bad enough the response time we're seeing out of Ottawa in regards to all of the suggestions for aid, packer expansion and such, imagine if they didn't have to look out their front door to see how its affecting Canadian farmers."

We have the same probs here - trust me it is no better here.

"Its so easy for eastern Canada to not see beyond the bush of Northern Ontario"

Having been involved in ag all my life - Alberta, Sask and Ont I can tell you that all you are doing is driving wedges between allies.

"PS...... still haven't seen ANY response from Ottawa in regards to their share of the Other Ruminant programs......."

That has been addressed at our meetings here - unsuccessfully - Ont ag folks also are involved with "other ruminants" and hurting as badly as those in the west.

So to get back on topic - any comments about the things I mentioned a couple of posts ago - or do we simply divide ourselves and allow others to continue the conquest of ag?

I think I will back out of this thread - it is deteriorating. I now understand why guys like Randy K. are tired and beat up - lots of steam but little directed push from those who COULD make a difference.

regards

Bez