backgrounding calves on swaths

[cswilson]

Swath grazing can be effective in a good year for sure but in a drought or a winter like we've just had not so good. I think if I ever did it again I'd plant maybe enough to carry the pairs till I wean. I'd only do it on rented land as I don't care to ever see black dirt on our place again if I can help it. It's getting hard to hire farmers to do that sort of thing as by swath grazing seeding time most have parked their stuff.

[kpb]

grassfarmer, I've been ruminating while feeding the calves this morning about your question regarding swath grazing costs. I think .50 per dry cow is probably about right--here's how I figured it: it costs me about $80 per acre to plant and swath a crop of barley. East of Carstairs we figure on averaging, say 4,000 lbs of dry matter per acre. If a dry cow eats 25 lbs. of dry matter per day, an acre could support 160 cows for a day. $80 divided by 160 equals .50 per head per day with no wastage. So maybe add in a nickle per head for wastage?
These figures are rough.
Now it costs me .50 a head a day to feed a dry cow silage before machinery costs. In other words 2,000 lbs. of silage costs me a little over $20 in the pit. But machinery and fuel are killers. Still, I can mix mineral in the silage which is a plus and, for calves of course, the grain.
I've been very interested in what cowman said about leaving the calves on the cow as long as possible. We were always told not to do this but I think I'm going to give it a try this winter with some animals. It's actually a way of backgrounding the calves. Very interesting.
And cs wilson has also made me think--this year we bought cow hay for about $25 a bale so it would have been cheaper to graze the cows as long as possible on our grass, then buy in whatever feed we needed. I think, grassfarmer, that this would have been cheaper than either swathgrazing, silage feeding or feeding your own hay. But in most years our hay to buy in cost is more like $40 a bale plus transport to the yard. That might make it too costly.
I think swath grazing is an excellent way to go but I don't see it much cheaper than silage feeding on a crop basis. You don't have machinery costs which is a real plus but if I'm starting everything up anyways to feed the calves then I'm not sure my cow machinery costs are really big. Which gets us back to whether it's possible to background calves on swaths which would save a pile of machinery costs.
Sorry for the long ramble--these numbers any use to you, grassfarmer?

kpb

[cswilson]

We've tried leaving calves on cows and didn't like it much-we were practicing evolution more than selection. If we did it again I'd build a creep pen for the calves with some good second cut hay and their own bedding. Where our cows winter out is not a very kind place for calves to say the least-sometimes the paddock I want manure on isn't too sheltered.

[kpb]

cs wilson, would you consider creep feeding the calves and leaving on the cows and out on the range or do you think it's better just to take them off and feed them in the lot? I don't want the calves to go backwards over the winter--there's no money in that so maybe they do have to come in for proper feeding as we've always done.

kpb

[cswilson]

I usually wean pretty early anything over a 100 days old and keep them in the pens-I find it pretty expensive to feed a calf through the cows mouth in winter. Those light calves don't eat a heck of alot on their own and we can keep them on water up in the yard. Our old cows winter on snow and that can get pretty tough on calves. We usually just roll hay out for them (12-15lbs) and if it gets cold we'll feed them 3-5 lbs of screening pellets. I used to winter on straight hay but in real cold weather gets pretty tough on them-they'll make compemsatory gains on grass but last several dry years been hard to find good yearling pasture.

[kpb]

While out finishing the feeding it crossed my mind that the numbers I gave in the earlier post could not be right. Everything I do is based on silage so it's hard to cut out the costs of the swath grazing we do but obviously if we take 8 tons of silage off a quarter, there will be roughly half that of dry matter or 4 tons so say 8000 lbs. At a cost of $80.00 per acre to put the crop in, that is .25 for a dry cow's daily feed of 25 lbs in swath grazing. However I think they likely eat 30 lbs in reality and maybe waste another 5 lbs per day so say a cost of .35 per dry cow per day compared to a silage cost of .50 per day before feeding costs and, with hay at $30 a bale (1200 lbs) a cost of .62 per day. There are many other factors to consider on top of just cost.

kpb

[grassfarmer]

Interesting information, kbp when you talk of using essentially the same yields in your silage and swathgrazing operations does that mean you seed your swathgrazing stuff at the same time or do you seed later, maybe late June as most folk do for swaths? It strikes me that seeding in late June you forgo a lot of growing days in an already short growing season.
I agree also with your comment on starting your tractor to feed some animals and it being just as easy to feed the rest while you are at it. If you have the tractor already and use it 60% less it doesn't save that much money. Great if you can do everything with just a truck or a team of horses but it's not worth having a tractor parked in the shed, swathgrazing and claiming you are efficient because you only use a bale truck to feed with.

I had been contemplating setting aside a quarter for half swathgrazing / half silage on a permanent basis. I don't have water on it and a frostfree nosepump would provide an option if we used the same land every year.
I've spoken to many advisors and they all tell me it is a bad move as it is unsustainable. I'm talking about alternating which half is silaged and which is swathgrazed every year, possibly putting a legume like peas in the silage crop,using adequate purchased fertiliser,alternating oats and barley, zero tilling the crops and also feeding on the land once the swaths are finished. Still they say it is unsustainable and a really bad idea - do you guys agree with that?
There argument is it will deplete the land too much, mine is it will deplete it less than the guys round here that take crops off year after year with conventional tillage and little or no fertiliser.
Their alternative is to use swathgrazing rotationally on the whole place but with electric fences all over the place it makes cultivation difficult and I don't feel the need to reseed the whole place. It's far cheaper and easier to manipulate the pasture I already have by intensive grazing.

[cowman]

I can't see why that wouldn't work. We have land here that has been continuous cropped for many decades. Fertilize to a soil test and control the weeds. Usually bale the straw at least every other year. Yields are as good(if not better) than ever.
I sort of like the idea of swath grazing, although I'm not too keen on electric fences! But I do wonder if the economics are really there? I've often wondered about the economics of silage versus green feed too? I believe we need to consider the after harvest grazing/salvage from silage/greenfeed/grain? We rely on at least ten days after harevest.
I also believe people feed their cows to much. A dry cow doesn't need all that protein that decent alfalpha hay has in it? A respectable timothy/fescue hay should have 7% protein, which should be totally adequate to meet her needs? I also believe timothy has more energy value than alfalpha? The old timers used to insist that work horses could work hard on a diet of timothy.

[cswilson]

Grassfarmer if that isn't sustainable I don't really what is. I think that would work. When we used to swath graze we always underseeded some rye and sweet clover with it for grazing-and back when it rained we got some greenfeed off it the next year also.

[cswilson]

cowman, you hit on a very interesting point. Oldtimers fed timothy hay to their workhorses and likely to their cows as well, and you can bet that the cattle didn't get any fancy protein blocks and minerals either. Mind you the cattle were british breds and not the high performing exotics. Folks were happy with a 400 weaning weight back in the olden days too.
I think that one difference between silage and greenfeed is the waste of the courser straw on the greenfeed vs the fact that the cattle clean up most of the silage.
I am feeding a lot of baled oats with regrowth grasses in it. It is super feed but I went light on it prior to calving. The cows that have calved are getting a lot of it now with some good hay and tubs of agriblend molasses protein supplement and are doing great.
Spent the night up walking back and forth to the barn waiting for a heifer to get busy and have her baby. Little grandson asked if I was outside looking for the Easter Bunny !!!
Didn't see the bunny, but say the eyes of a coyote gleaming in the light from the spotlight a couple of times.
Can't shoot in most directions from the farmstead due to neighbours houses being pretty close !!!