Early weaning/ swath grazing/ etc.

[smcgrath76]

This stems from the earlier thread on swath grazing. We are currently looking to calve even later and wean even earlier than ever before in 2006. Unfortunately in 2004 our AI tech (me) had to go on a work trip so we started calving on St. Paddy's day with a couple of short gestation heifers.
Just wanted your thoughts on the following:
heifers calve april 15th to end of may.
cows calve may 1 to june 30.
we will wean 100 - 150 day old calves around the end of september and bring them home. As we feed our calves we don't particularly care what the weaning weights are. Cows peak out milking at around 60 days and by 100 we figure the calf is more of a PITA than anything for that cow.
This way we figure we can graze stubble with 1st trimester dry cows for 30 cents a day rent, move onto stockpiled native forage at home with second trimester dry cows around December, and then finish up on swaths/bale grazing sometime in mid Feb through the end of March.
We figure we can effectively stretch our feed supply (6 weight calves eat a lot less than 1200 pound cows), have more grass, and work less to get it done.
Any experience with this? Thoughts?

[farmers_son]

Just some ideas:

I was interested to notice you only figure a 1 ½ month calving period for heifers while having a 2 month calving period for cows. If you wean the end of September given the calving dates you indicate you will be weaning calves at between 90 and 170 days.

You will be turning your bull out with your cows around July 20. First trimester ends around mid December, second trimester ends around mid March, last trimester from then into June.

I would be concerned about the quality of pasture end of July early August to provide the best conditions for rebreeding your cows. The number one goal is not to see how cheap you can winter the cows, but to keep those cows in calf. I like to see cows being bred in June to mid July as that typically is the best pasture. Sixty day calving periods are great if the cows are all in calf but the profit is in those last cows, 75 days may get a few more bred. If you start calving your cows when your heifers calve you can gain another 15 days breeding period. Open cows are expensive.

Calves weaned early are harder to get off the cow. I presume your corrals are up to the task. If you can stubble graze cows for under $10 a head per month, how much more would it cost you for that pasture if the calves were still on the cow? It will cost you about $20 per head per month for each calf in the feedlot just for feed plus whatever yardage you have. Calves in a feedlot take time every day, calves on a cow do not. Have you considered your labour availability in September/October. I mention this because you said get the job done with less work.

If you need to keep your cows in confinement for calving you will be feeding into June. If you calve on grass that works well. Something to keep in mind if they are calving on tame grass pasture in June it can be a problem to find the new born calves lying in the tall grass on a normal year.

There is no magic. Cows and calves eat no matter when they calve and when they are weaned. We will swath graze pregnant cows right up unto calving time. Assuming the quality and quantity of feed is there for them they do fine. No need to delay calving so you can swath graze.

[smcgrath76]

your thoughts are quite helpful, as we are trying to consider all the pros and cons. We may wean calves onto forage (higher quality) rather than into the yard. We basically corral our cows 4 days a year. Estrumate day, AI day, Weaning/Vaccination, and sometimes a second Ivomec treatment.
It is hard to justify keeping calves on cows that are stubble grazing as the nutrient levels in the forage do not faciliate maintaining cow body condition, milking and calf growth.
Your thoughts on breeding season are quite useful. Heifers will basically have the same period to calve as cows with an extra 2 weeks up front. Pre-BSE we had little (no) patience with cattle that did not breed (although I am learning how this affects cow depreciation), and we managed to clean house due to drought in 2002, so we are in pretty good shape for getting cows bred. Grass management and grass species pretty much take care of the midsummer pasture quality issues for us.
The labour question is the $64,000 one for us. You bring us some points we may need to reconsider.
We are not against labour, but we know our time is better spent working on where we are going, rather than doing what we are doing. We make more money studying our books, our a sire catalogue, or the markets than we do feeding our cows.

[grassfarmer]

Some interesting points from both of you here. I can see this being a very personal decision based on our respective areas, differing moisture and labour availability.
Farmers_son, I appreciate the point you make about time for summer breeding relative to grass drying up. I'm in a higher moisture area and don't worry too much about this but I think also you need to remember what condition the cows are in. My grass may well be best quality on 10th June but by 10th July the cows will have a month of good grazing under their belts (well on their backs hopefully!). They need time to recover from winter and if they hit grass in early June in good enough condition to breed rapidly you have put them in that condition by winter feeding rather than grazing.
My experience of weaning in the last two years taught me a lesson - 2003 saw me fenceline weaning March calves on 27th September in perfect conditions - 20C and the calves lying sunbathing. 2004 with late April/ May calves I planned for a month later weaning but got caught with deep snow on October 15th - toughed them out until October 27th and weaned into corrals. This cost me condition on the cows and the calves.
In future I will wean younger calves in better weather.
As you say farmers_son you need to start feeding calves daily in the feedlot. In my case I don't mind because I don't work off farm and would be here in any case. Getting the weaning, preconditioning and backgrounding on my calves right has probably made me more money than any other part of my operation in the last 3 years.
I'm still pondering the role of swathgrazing in my operation. It struck me this morning that perhaps we are looking at it the wrong way. It can be a cheaper replacement for winter feeding no doubt but it won't be cheaper than grazing grass. For me to move to part swathgrazing it means taking land out of intensively managed grass - essentially for the whole growing season. So on my operation it means I would be out of grass earlier and would in fact be replacing fall grazing with swathgrazing. To set against that is the potential higher production per acre under swaths versus grass. I can see someone who grows their own hay or silage moving to swathgrazing as an easy decision but to move from a grass operation to a swath and grass operation is tougher. Until the day comes when I have cows grazing grass every day of the year they physically can I perhaps shouldn't be considering swaths at all. For me that might mean managing the grass better so that I not only have grass to graze until Christmas but have sufficient banked grass to graze from April 1st to June 1st. I have enough to calve on this year but it will be gone by early May leaving another month of winter rations. Maximising grazing time and buying in winter feed will increase the organic matter on my place more than growing feed at home - and to me organic matter is the magic ingredient.

[kpb]

really interesting ideas on this thread. grassfarmer, you mentioned grazing grass until Christmas, then from April 1 on. Do you think you could leave some grass to graze in January and February? Do you think the grass would, in effect, freeze dry and give enough for a dry cow to get through? Snow could be cleared off, creating paths for the cows to graze, presumably. I've never done it but I've thought about it sometimes. Do you think the stockpiled grass would have any value in the dead of winter?

kpb

[grassfarmer]

kpb,
I'm really just talking about what is practical taking into account the deep snow season we get up here. I'm sure there are plenty people grazing cows year round in the chinook zone. The theory of grazing banked grass is well established and is documented to show very little loss of feed value even through to the next spring if the correct varieties are used. I just accept that for part of the winter, in this area, we need to feed cows due to snow depth. There seems to be so much attention on how to keep them on swaths until December or through until February but little on grazing through April and May. There is one very good grass manager up near Crestomere that doesn't swath graze but does graze into mid December and from 1st April onwards. Given the cost of feeding a cow through April and May will be higher than just about any other months of the year (for a March/April calver anyway)shouldn't we pay more attention to grazing at this point of the year rather than in December when it could be on a diet of straw and not much else?

I'm really enjoying this "back to basics" brainstorming too - it is good for us all to consider why we do things the way we do. As for ploughing snow off grass in January - I get enough of that through Feb and March to lay their feed down on without having to extend the job LOL

[grassguy]

Many good points being brought up. My experience with rebreeding is the better condition the cow is in at calving the quicker she will rebreed. our cows start June 1, we had 82% of calves born in the first 21 days this past year, most years it will be in the 75% range. Our bulls go out August 23, not much green left in our country. Has worked well for a dozen years about. If the cows are fat but well conditioned from grazing there should be no problems at calving. We mostly check cows for postcalving problems, udders etc. Our udder problems are the same as when we calved in April, no sunburn problems though. Grassfarmer, you are right on with your point of using stockpile grazing in the spring. Most of the native grasses cure off well and have decent energy, some protein supplement helps, depending on whether the cow is lactating or not. There are introduced grasses that can cure off very well, but others that do not. I need to figure out how to feed those little calves reasonably, should be weaning the heifers and cull cows etc. early. Most of our calves stay on the cow much longer. Very few health problems that way. Aiming for long yearling market.

[FRENCHMAN]

excellent thread...so what would happen if we threw some standing grazing corn in the mix.
to graze when the snow got too deep to swath-graze..and pencilled it out bit by bit with an electric wire.

[cswilson]

Cows rea;lly go after stockpiled grass early in spring-this is when we usually graze grass that we fed on a year previous-cows don't like it much the next spring and summer so they leave a good regrowth but they will lick it up like candy as soon as the snow goes. As far as building moving or otherwise fencing in the winter-not my cup of tea-early winter is for hunting and the rest is for hockey.

[rkaiser]

Good points cswilson,we certainly need to ad in those important things in life. This grazing corn thing is becoming more interesting every year as well frenchman. Seeing more and more trials here in Alberta.

Getting these cows working for us is what this thread is all about. Even though there may be a few younger guys on this site, most of us see a day when physical work will become harder to deal with. Hard to push our kids at this industry these days, so it looks like retirement may just be a few less cows, and a lot less management.

[grassfarmer]

Frenchman, the grazing corn does look interesting but I wouldn't consider it.
I'm put of by that advert for the RR version where they claim you can feed your cows for 65 (?) cents a day but they will only guarantee they won't cost more that $1.20 per day or you will get your money back up to a $3000 limit. That is a total crock - they claim it to be cheap but won't stand behind it at a realistic price level. It's a hugely expensive input crop and this money all goes into Monsanto, fuel companies, fertiliser companies - all the people removing the profit from agriculture. Looks like too high risk for me - plus I live in just about the frostiest hollow in the Province which won't suit corn.

[cswilson]

Hey glad to hear you had a great sale Randy-how many bulls are coming north-do you feel like judging a 4H show when you make your trip north.I'm heading to Balzac for Ty's bullriding on 4/15 so will try and stop in then.

[smcgrath76]

This is a very useful discussion for us. I don't think corn fits in our picture at home. We have talked about it, but it is too land/$/equipment intensive for us. As well, we can generally graze well into winter (at least for the last several years). We are in NE AB, so frost free days are an issue for us as well.
Stockpiled forage is our lifeblood at home as we graze native range in the winter, but put our cows onto tame forage (crested wheat) in early spring once the growing season starts. If we graze native range too early we see a big shift away from wheatgrass/needlegrass/fescue and into blue grama. The money we would lose on forage production by doing this would sink us as we graze mostly native range.
There was some neat work done out of U of S that shows that native range will outproduce tame in the longrun with no inputs.
We are considering crested wheat and cicer milkvetch as a good combination as we can hammer the crested early on, come back and get the cicer milkvetch and recovered CW, and then stockpile the remainder.
Just some of our thinking at the moment though. We are lucky as Dad is pretty open to new ideas, and I have a little brother working on a rangelands degree.

[FRENCHMAN]

Lots of guys here growing corn...some of them have got their cost down to 35-40cents a day per head.We averaged 206 cows days per acre swath grazing oats this year.As far as moving fence its no problem..In fact its quicker then feeding round bales.One day in Febuary here I gave the cows enough feed for 3 days in 28 minutes.

[farmers_son]

Smcgrath76: Is there a link for the U of S research on native grass vs tame that you mentioned?