Still the Apathy

[rkaiser]

What is it that people with an interest in finding solutions to our current Beef Industry problems need to do to create interest with the producer at large?

The crowd in Edmonton for the ABP town hall meeting was less than 50 producers.

Is everyone comfortable pumping off farm income in to their ranches? Is everyone else okay with eroding equity at a rate never before seen in the ranching history of this country?

Here was an opportunity, especially in the afternoon to listen, and then ask questions of people who do have some very good solutions.

Three plant proposals with producer ownership, and viable business plans. Along with Cam Ostecamps offer to help any or all of these proposals with the BIG C plan for a Federal government bridge financed fund to help finance these plants, and or build a plant with this levy share concept on our own.

Less than 50 people, with less than 10 questions.

Are we all wasting our time, energy and money? Another tank of gas for yours truely and an entry fee of $6.00 to park at Northlands.

I am not asking anything of you folks here on Agriville. I know you are part of the minority of people making an effort. What I would like is your advice on how much more time etc. Cam, and I and Doug, and Myrna should put into a concept that has no more opportunity to help any one of us than is has in helping each and every producer in this country.

[farmers_son]

I tried to point out in other threads that if producers did not come to these meetings it should not be attributed to producer apathy.

I tried to point out that a large producer attendance could not expected. The meeting was not advertised, at least to my knowledge, as an opportunity to to listen, and then ask questions of people who do have some very good solutions. I tried to point out that it was possible that producers were not interested in hearing the ABP talk about further legal challenges to open the border and the other agenda items like RFID tags.

You say that three plants were there with viable business plans. I have seen one of those business plans, apparently costing $300,000, and it was not a well done plan. It was poorly done. That is not to say that the plant would not be successful, because as long as the border is closed to cow beef any idiot could run a packing plant and be very profitable. But I was not impressed. Maybe you were wearing your rose colored glasses if you thought all the business plans were viable but it my opinion some of those business plans need a lot of work.

I do not think the people working to establish producer plants are wasting their time. The goal is admirable and change is necessary. No doubt there are challenges and obstacles in the path. What feel did you get from the ABP people present? Is there a change of heart within the directors and executive of the ABP? I think it is necessary to find out exactly what the ABP is supporting and what it is not supporting. I am sure there is support for the Price plant at Balzac. And I am sure there is ABP and CCA support for the expansion at Cargill and the proposed expansion at Lakeside. If ABP is reluctant to support other proposals, especially producer proposals it would be valuable to try and find out what their concerns are so they can be addressed.

And if they cannot be addressed then producers may have to consider finding other ways to achieve their goals and not let more valuable time slip by trying to move an immovable stone.

I am sure there are lots of producers that would support a viable producer plant. I have talked to well established ranchers who want to participate in packing plants but just do not have the money to invest.

If anyone knows the date of the next ABP directors meeting, I would suggest interested producers should attend. If possible get on the agenda but if nothing else sit in on the meeting and hear the discussion. Are they even talking about increased packing capacity? Apparently it is one of their action items, the others being increase access to international markets, extend set-aside programs and expedite age verification systems. Attend the meetings and see if they are even talking about solutions or are they so busy trying to find a new general manager and more buying more advertising that there is not time to consider industry issues. If you can, talk to them about your solution but also really listen to their concerns about any proposals you put forward. There may be changes you need to implement.

I would suggest more tanks of gas spent going to producer meetings will be of limited benefit. The producers are already behind the concept. Anyone with their ear to the ground knows by reading threads like this, letters to the editors, listening to producers at auction sales and so on that although they may have concerns they are supporting producer packing plants. Focus you limited energies and resources on the politics, at the industry, provincial and government levels. And be prepared to listen and read between the lines. They may drop hints of what they would support. But surely don’t despair because only 50 producers showed up at an ABP meeting. There was no reason to expect anything else.

[farmers_son]

The meeting was well advertised on CFCW for several days, and Friday's Alberta at Noon program featured an interview with someone from ABP advising that there would be opportunities to speak to groups regarding various packing plant initiatives.

I don't know what the attendance was in total for the Farm and Ranch Show, but I know many people locally that just could not get away due to calving.

Randy, the folks that did attend and have their questions answered will tell others so don't feel to dejected, it isn't a total loss of time.

[WoolyBear]

While I am not from Alberta, and while some of the things that I'll suggest don't apply to all of us, here is the take that I would make on why we have such small turnouts for producer meetings.....

1) Gas is over 90 c/L and pickups get pretty crappy mileage.
2) Calves and or lambs are arriving.
3) Kids in school, or left home, and the wife is away working....... none to check on the cow/ewes.
4) No money to spend for memberships etc. While I personally believe that for the producer checkoffs I pay...... I am getting a positive return on the $$ spent.
5) Worked all day, have to spend the evenings doing chores, then too pooped out to stay awake at the meetings. Most of us snore too....... so thats almost as bad as a heckler.
6) Unfortunately on many of the issues, some people, including myself sees the governing bodies (producer groups AND civil bodies)making the decisions based on lobbying from groups that DON'T attend the PUBLIC meetings........examples>>>larger hog investor groups, large ILO proponents, packers and consumer groups (whether they actually exist or not).
7) Many producers see meetings occuring in distant locations as being a waste of their money and their time.

Rather than having that ABP meeting for example in a location where you had to pay $6 for a parking place, why didn't they hold it in a rural area with a suitable hall to hold a couple of hundred people?
I personally don't appreciate my producer group having an Annual meeting in a fancy hotel in Winnipeg....... there are cheaper ways to do business. After all why do we need to impress anyone with banquets and snazzy hotels?
Soup and a sandwich (or 2) looks after most of us.......OH Don't forget the sweet mixed pickles!!!!!

8) Most of us are reasonably humble folks. While I appreciate the opportunity to rant in a forum like this....... I could never say half of what is on my mind in public, and even less where I know or am known by the crowd. Call it pride, call it foolish, I wish I could ask the right questions at a meeting.

Just want to conclude by saying thank you to those of you that are able to represent the masses, and hopefully the rest of us can HELP somehow, sometime, somewhere when we can.

[farmers_son]

I see the ABP had an agenda on their site at:

http://www.albertabeef.org/Banner%20ad%20pdfs/Northlands%20agenda.pdf

What did Ted Schroeder have to say? Was his talk positive for producers wanting to integrate further up the value chain or did he talk more along the lines of supply chains with Cargill and Tyson calling the shots?

And was Lloyd Snellgrove indicating provincial support for more packing capacity, and if so by producers or more big expansion by the big packers?

[grassfarmer]

Randy, Your questions are ones that I am asking myself now too. I'm getting to the point where I'm not going to waste a lot more time on sticking up for the "average" producer when it's clear they won't get off their backsides to help themselves.
Yes, our industry faces huge problems and no ABP don't know all the answers -but it is not their fault. I have never seen a more apathetic group of people than the beef producers of Western Canada.
We can listen to all the excuses about the price of gas being too high to attend meetings, busy calving blah blah blah - these are b$$$sh$$ excuses. Every week I read the local papers and see the pictures of the local curling competitions - the farmers all make time for that. They either don't give a damn or aren't hurting as bad as they claim to be.

I'm starting to concentrate on my own business more and as I see it I have three choices.
1. try and expand the value added part of it (direct retailing)
2. expand to be a bigger player, to outlast most of the neighbours and make some efficiency improvements through scale.(there will always be a living in being in the top 10% of producers on efficiency)
3. Work politically to improve the lot of everyone in the industry and ensure a fair return for all producers.

Well I'm just about played out trying number 3 so maybe I need to concentrate on the other two.

[WoolyBear]

Grassfarmer..... most of those excusses are extrememly valid. The cost of a tank of gas can keep some families in food for quite a while. I know of too many people that in taking an off farm job, or being away at meetings, or being involved in curling or what ever else are letting the farm suffer. Lambs and calves don't last long when its cold, wet and sick. While one is away at that job, the crop or hay doesn't get in on a timely bases either. How many calves do you have lose to realize that the $12/hr off farm job is a waste of time! Look at the extra stress working on your own business in the dark after you get home?

Maybe those that are not attending are doing just as you plan to do....... and really when it all comes down to it, if the farm fails, your perfect meeting attendance won't count for crap anyway.

PS....... try and be part of a family farm too where dear old dad is ready to retire and thinks that producer meetings and membership is just a bunch of crap anyway. Fortunately, some of us (WHEN WE CAN) do try to put in an effort in which any way we can.

[WoolyBear]

grassfarmer, not every farmer curls, and I guarantee that some folks just plain cannot get away even though they have good intentions.
Feeding 150-200 cows and calves takes time, particularly when it is muddier than hell in every area of the farm. Checking to see that all the calves are doing okay also takes time and every good cattleman does this at least once a day.
I have neighbours that have been going day and night for three weeks or more and had to cancel their appointment with their accountant because they haven't had time to sit down and get their books ready to go.
The cost of gas is also a significant issue when you realize that it takes half a tank or more to get to Edmonton and back, plus parking,plus meals for the family etc. Not every farmer has an extra couple of hundred bucks in their jeans.
I am as disappointed with apathy as you and Randy are but please don't tar everyone with the same brush.

[grassfarmer]

I'm not blaming either of you guys for not being at a meeting this week, as Randy says the people on this forum are a pretty active group.
I still maintain that most of the problem is apathy not working too hard - I spent a lot of time last summer trying to get people to the BIG meeting in our area - a cold wet night in July when no-one was haying and still people were too busy to attend. Same at the ABP fall meetings - too busy. Yet the same people were away camping numerous times last summer, at Calgary stampede, visiting, BBQ'ing - all manner of things. It's a matter of priorities.
I realise that we are in a period now when many are calving - but last night we attended a potluck event at our local hall - in a tiny community - but still we had 25-30 producers there. If the entire Rimbey area had supported the ABP meeting last week with that proportion of producers we might have had 4-500 in the hall instead of 70. Two of my neighbours that are young (30s or 40s) both working in the oilpatch and running 50-70 cow herds just laughed at me when I suggested they attend the ABP meeting. Later they were talking about running a poker game with $200 stakes - looks to me like money is not a problem to this kind of producer, and round here there are very few young producers who don't have these types of off farm job.
Off course there is the element of Government compensation to consider - how much it totals on average I don't know but I got $116 per cow "subsidy"
last year with another $160 per cow promised through CAIS.
Woolybear, The story that people have to choose between filling their truck with gas or putting a meal on their table for their families belongs on another continent - I'm not buying that one in Canada in 2005.
I don't like meetings either, I would much rather be at home with my animals and consequently rarely get away from the place.
BIG could have done great things last summer, when we were talking about it first my NFU friend said if we had 15-20,000 producers attend the meetings across the Prairies Government would HAVE to listen and act. Well producers didn't deliver - all they had to do was turn up, there are enough leaders to do the speaking all we needed was seats filled.
So what do we do now? - tell Cam to give up because we can't be bothered supporting them?
Should I embark now on a campaign like Cam and Co. did trying to sell the NFU idea of Federal Government intervention in the Packer Monopoly? To go anywhere it needs the same show of support BIG needed - what chance is there of that?
I'm clean out of ideas now - it's a pathetic situation and won't get better until producers wake up and smell the coffee.

[15444]

You just have to look at the age of farmers in this country.

The older guys don't care. They have families, grandchildren, hobbies and just general rest that they want to do before they kick the bucket. Most people put those things ahead of the farm, so a meeting to rehash what should have been done a year ago doesn't really turn their crank. They have been here through the decades and they know the attitude of government towards agriculture. I suspect most are waiting for a slight increase in prices to decide to quit. Sell the calves this year and the poor cows, sell the younger ones as breds, rent out the pastures, sell some of the hayland, maybe put up some horse hay if the weather is good during the summers. Lots of equity and if they have a decent pension coming in, then the farm really doesn't matter.

The young guys are either the ones fighting like hell to stay afloat and not lose everything, or like grassfarmer said, have $200 for other things and are making so much on their off-farm job that the farm takes second to everything else.

Although we all need it, I think the biggest mistake is every single cash handout that we have gotten. All these programs do is convince the hobby people to stay in it because there is free money to be had.

The BIG C idea of a large plant is a good idea, but you need a low dollar checkoff across a few of the provinces to make it pay. How is that even possible to get multi-group/province support when ABP can't even agree on support? Alot of people, including me, want to remove every person at the helm of all these idiodic organizations...but how do we do it? Can I just write a letter with a few signatures calling for the immediate resignation of Laycraft...and then it actually happens? Probably not. Most likely has to be handled and driven by the directors themselves. Who needs that frustration?

[kpb]

15444 is exactly right in all of the points raised. Grassfarmer and RKaiser, how many producers in Alberta are full-time farmers who depend on the price of the calf for their sole source of living? Not many I'd say, and how many of those full-timers are planning to still be in the business in three or four years?

Most of the full timers that I know are like myself, getting old with lots of equity and getting a little tired. How many of us do you guys think will even be in the business in, say, five years?
Nobody I know has any faith in the ABP so it's hard for anyone to be enthusiastic about going to a meeting for a group that purports to represent us but has done nothing since BSE hit.

It's also true that the cow-calf guy hasnt been hit all that hard yet anyways. Apart from the fact that he can't sell his culls for a decent price, the price he's been getting for his calves has not been that bad. I think all of that is going to change this fall because the feeders continue to take a licking but it hasn't happened to date.

As 15444 states, all the handouts just encourage the part-timers to stay in the business. I hate to say this, and I know a lot of guys will not like it, but as long as we are a business that has an easy entry point so that part-timers and hobby farmers can easily get in, the full timers will always be hard pressed to make a living. It's pretty simple--when you produce a commodity the producers that survive will be those that do not care what price they produce the product for.

Unfortunatly, grassfarmer, that isn't the 10% most efficient--it's the producers who have off-farm income because they don't care at all about efficiency or the price they receive for their calves. It doesn't matter much to them because it is not their main income source. That's why, grassfarmer, chasing the goal of top 10% efficiency is a losing effort and will not save the full-time farmer. This is the same red herring we have been chasing for 50 years by increasing production--all it does is make the fertilizer companies rich--a full time farm that has to depend on prices to live cannot compete in the same business with a part-timer no matter how efficient it is.

Being efficient is a good thing and something we strive for but, by itself, it will not enable you to compete with people who are not efficient and do not care if they make money or not. These, by the way, are the same people who make up most of our industry and who do not care much about changing things for the better in our industry. Farming to them is like hunting to lots of us--it's a lot of fun but you don't expect to make a living from it.

Is it any wonder that we can't get the government to take us seriously?


kpb

[grassfarmer]

15444, Producers missed the chance to alter the balance of ABP directors last Fall. In my zone we ran three candidates against the sitting ones and two got elected. I don't recall if there was another zone in the province that contested every sitting candidate, many were just re-elected by acclaimation. If producers had been wanting change they could have had new "smart candidates" contesting every position and today close to 50% of the ABP delegates elected by producers could have been working for us instead of against us. If producers had done that and repeated it this fall they could have replaced the other half - eventually the leadership would have been changed. Missed opportunity.

kpb, I agree with your point about part-timers but would point out that when I said in the top 10% for efficiency I wasn't talking only about technical efficiency. I meant all round business efficiency and that includes playing the Gov. programs right, not having a large debt to equity ratio as well as being good technically at producing beef for the lowest cost. I still believe there is a position for full time producers in this category - I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't believe in it.

[wd40]

We still havn't been hurt enough yet.

[15444]

I never have been totally sure as too how the ABP was structured, so I went a researchin'. Interesting to note just how much freedom Alberta beef producers have in electing their representatives. BIG difference from Ontario. I'm very jealous. But as I see it, with the turnout your seeing at your meetings, it won't be long before the ABP will want to 'save money' (i.e. take more for themselves) by restructuring the ABP to mimic the OCA, an organization of elite producers who make all the decisions in Ontario. There is no voice for any cow/calf producers, big or small, in Ontario anymore. If only the small producers, myself included, had known what lying scumbags were involved in the OCA, we could have stopped the destruction of the OCA as a cow/calf organization.

[15444]

The Zone 6 meeting in Breton last fall was very well attended, compared to many over the past few years. Grassfarmer, that interest is likely why there were some changes in this Zone.