Fair Market Beef

[rookie]

We have to do something because since the border shut , we have basically done nothing.

Who else will help the producer?

All I see is everyone having an opinion about how to solve this ( or how it won't work ), bla bla bla... but nothing ever changes.

Aren't you tired of this yet?

There is the old saying " all hat and no cows " , well I think we as producers are dangerously close to being " all debate with no action ".

Part of the solution or part of the problem... I know where I will be...

[farmers_son]

Frenchman: For me, rather than do nothing I think the action that offers the best chance of positive returns for Canadian producers is to focus 100% on increasing packing plant capacity in Canada.

Canadians trying to win legal battles in U.S. courts, especially Montana courts, is a low percentage thing at best. FYI, the CCA and ABP tried again this week to get status in the R-Calf injunction and both R-Calf and the USDA objected and Cebull will decide later this month.

Regarding boxed beef trade, I personally think it is very unlikely that boxed beef trade will stop, for many reasons, not the least of which it would cost the two American packers huge bucks and cause severe harm to the U.S. packing industry.

For me, a vigilante action like this going into Montana court and arguing the safety of our beef actually gives R-Calf ammunition to close boxed beef trade if the Canadian group were to loose their case. There are downsides to this action well beyond the $20 producers are paying up. We are dealing with issues having very serious consequences for the entire industry. At the very least this initiative should be coordinated with the CCA.

But I still prefer to see action of the packing plant front rather than Canadians trying to influence a foreign court. If the Americans are hell bound bent on stopping our live cattle it only helps Canada increase its packing capacity. My opinion.

[FRENCHMAN]

farmers-son.. For me, rather than do nothing I think the action that offers the best chance of positive returns for Canadian producers is to focus 100% on increasing packing plant capacity in Canada.

Frenchman...thats fine if you are not counting on the U.S being 40% or more of our export markets. Building packing capacity is fine, As long as it has somewhere to go to.

farmers-son..Canadians trying to win legal battles in U.S. courts, especially Montana courts, is a low percentage thing at best. FYI, the CCA and ABP tried again this week to get status in the R-Calf injunction and both R-Calf and the USDA objected and Cebull will decide later this month.

frenchman..so we just ignore the situation?

farmers-son...Regarding boxed beef trade, I personally think it is very unlikely that boxed beef trade will stop, for many reasons, not the least of which it would cost the two American packers huge bucks and cause severe harm to the U.S. packing industry.

Frenchman...I would not count on that..if they can block cattle UTM..they sure the hell block our UTM beef..

Farmers-son...For me, a vigilante action like this going into Montana court and arguing the safety of our beef actually gives R-Calf ammunition to close boxed beef trade if the Canadian group were to loose their case. There are downsides to this action well beyond the $20 producers are paying up. We are dealing with issues having very serious consequences for the entire industry. At the very least this initiative should be coordinated with the CCA.

Frenchman ...I say the same to the CCA as I said to the prov MB Ag minister..Lead or get the hell out the way!!My opinon.

Farmers-son..But I still prefer to see action of the packing plant front rather than Canadians trying to influence a foreign court. If the Americans are hell bound bent on stopping our live cattle it only helps Canada increase its packing capacity. My opinion

Frenchman.. As long as you have a market that is.

[farmers_son]

“As long as you have a market that is."

Remember this story…One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on her head.
"Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."

Well the border did not open to live cattle on March 7 like we were told it would but the sky is not falling. As far as I know there is no court hearing scheduled with Cebull to close the border to live cattle. The lawsuit that R-Calf has launched against the USDA proposed rule deals with live cattle, not boxed beef. Although anything is possible last time I checked the sky was not falling. There is a market for our beef today and there will be a market for our beef tomorrow.

And what happens if R-Calf is rubbed out of existence? Assume for a minute we sue the bastards right off the face of the earth. Lets face it, R-Calf is just a name, the protectionist sentiments that drive organizations like R-Calf would still be there and another protectionist group would rise from the ashes.

R-Calf has achieved what success they have because the USDA has let them. The USDA is still going to be there if R-Calf disappeared and when this administration decides it is time to open the border to live cattle the border will open. Until then build packing plants.

I believe the talk of boxed beef trade beef trade being stopped is being spread by people who do not want to see packing capacity being built in this country, especially by producers. Look at who is talking that talk and see who they are. Figure it out for yourself.

[farmers_son]

Oops... I said "As far as I know there is no court hearing scheduled with Cebull to close the border to live cattle." I wish, I was getting a little Freudian there. I meant to say I was not aware of any pending court hearings to close the border to boxed beef.

[GodLovesTheUSA]

Well Hello Friends and greetings from the United States of America. As always I would like to say how much I admire Canadians and how I consider them my friends.
I would offer some unwanted advice. It’s free.
When are you guys going to get the idea? No one here needs your beef.

You used to sell billions of dollars worth of wheat to our enemies, Chine and USSR and when the cold war ended and your markets start to disappear, you think that you can simply convert your grain land to cattle production and sell your huge surplus to our market at American prices.
You seem to think that American producers just have to do with less because you have surplus land and grass.
What about your milk marketing system. American free enterprise can produce milk cheaper than your system, but we cannot sell milk into your market. Is that fair?
The point really is that if the shoe was on the other foot you would be looking after yourselves. Sure we have NAFTA, but does that mean we have to give up and let every Mexican and Canadian third world producer ruin our markets?

Why do you not try to think of something that Americans really need that you could supply to us? We do not really need your beef. The majority of people in our country are not starving. I was in Alberta last week and everything seems to be booming. Some towns in my state are really in decline. Schools are closing down and people are out of work.

Here are some things you could supply to the USA that we need.
1)Oil
2)Water
3)Electricity
4)Diamonds

Since you are involved in agriculture maybe you could research our markets and find something that we need. Goats milk for example or specialty cheese.
Instead you focus on our major and organized beef industry and think that you can simply sell your beef to us because of NAFTA. It is not that easy.

Maybe we could use a little support sometimes on other issues dear to our interests. Can you think of a few areas where you might be lacking?

Well anyway friends. Bring it on. Let me have it. The hated American. But while you are flaming and roasting me, why do you not start to think about what you are doing. All you talk about is more packing plants. Don't you think that we can find a way to shut that down as well? You are lucky to have some American owned packing plants in your country or you probably would not have any entry in the US for your "Alberta Beef".

[jensend]

ted aren't you supposed to be patrolling the mexican border?

[cowman]

Ted;
The fact of the matter is the US and Canada are the greatest trading partners in the world. Canada is Americas most valuable market, just like America is Canadas most valuable market? Just makes sense as we have a common border and mostly a common system of laws, government, history?
If you have been to Alberta I am sure you realize the people of Alberta are not very much different than a lot of Americans? In fact I might suggest we are more "American" than a lot of eastern American liberals?
I don't quite understand where you are coming from when you say Canada should support America on certain things? Do you mean we should have helped you in the **** of Iraq? I would thing even the most fanatical American patriot would realize by now what a gong show that turned out to be? Or should we be getting our moral laws more in line with Americas? Things like homosexual marriage and marijuana?....The only problem there is America is kind of schitzo on those things. Mj is basically legal in Alaska and I believe quite a few states allow gay marriage? Hawaii?
America doesn't need our beef? Well then who is eating all that boxed beef we are sending you? There has to always be a buyer and a seller...and I bet it sure isn't going for dogfood! In fact just about all of our beef is going into your high end restaurants, where the American consumer marvels at that tasty "American" steak!
Trying to blame Canada for all your problems just doesn't work. Unfortunately right now you have a government that is on the road to ruining your economy through a foolish war that has no justification.
All Americans should wake up to the fact that most of the world really doesn't like you? And quit treating your very few friends like garbage...hmmm I wonder if that might be why most of the world hates America?

[farmers_son]

Well said Cowman.

Here are some things that Canadians could supply to the USA that they need.

1)Friends
2)Humility
3)Human Compassion
4)Sense of Fair Play and Honesty

[rkaiser]

Wow cowman,,,, You wouldn't have to clean that up very much to be a lead article in the Globe and mail, or the New York Times.

Good on you cowman.

God may love America,

But a world full of human beings LOVES CANADA!

[rkaiser]

Great post cowman. It is unfortunate when neighbours are at odds, even farm neighbours, but when two countries with the longest undefended border in the world feel the need to throw barbs or close the border to certain commodities it is a sad day.
Interesting that our American friend does feel that they need our oil and water. Given what is in the Water for Life Framework for Water Management and the issues regarding water in AB. I would hope that water staysin our province.

[jensend]

if you look at gltusa's list of things canda can supply you can see he's got the attitude that the rest of the world exists at the pleasure of, and for the benefit of the usa. this is the attitude that has them in trouble around the world and is contributing to their lessening influence in europe, canada, japan, etc. the rest of the world is waking up to the fact that american cannot exist on its own and is vulnerable to the actions of other countries. i expect to see a burst of arrogance from the states as a protest against other countries picking their own course more and more.

[FRENCHMAN]

Farmers-son

Please read this article from the Western livestock Journal.

R-CALF injunction hearing date set
February 7, 2005
— Also demands Canada tests 50,000 annually.
A hearing date of March 2 has been set by a United States district court judge concerning a request for preliminary injunction filed against USDA’s Final Rule regarding Canadian cattle and beef exports to the U.S. If granted, the injunction filed by R-CALF USA would prevent the border from opening to live Canadian cattle 30 months of age and younger and all Canadian beef, regardless of the age of the source.
Additionally, R-CALF has requested that Canada must test a minimum of 50,000 cattle a year to gain a true assessment of its BSE prevalence.
Ranchers-Cattlemen Action Legal Fund United Stockgrowers of America (R-CALF USA) filed a full blown lawsuit against USDA’s final import rule on Jan. 10, and then followed it up later in the month with a request for preliminary injunction against the agency and the rule to reopen the border. The U.S. District Court in Billings, MT, announced a hearing date of March 2 for the request for preliminary injunction. That is five days before the Final Rule is to be implemented.
R-CALF USA communications coordinator Shae Dodson relayed that R-CALF USA attorneys and USDA attorneys have been communicating on the actions that will be taken between the time USDA announced the Final Rule and the date it is set to go into effect. Newly-appointed Secretary of Agriculture Mike Johanns confirmed this statement during his Senate confirmation hearing on Jan. 6.
R-CALF and several other supporters have indicated they want the injunction until the risk to U.S. beef producers and U.S. consumers is fully known. R-CALF said that isn’t possible until Canada tests at least 50,000 animals for BSE annually.
"The USDA has a duty to protect the health and safety of the U.S. cattle industry and U.S. consumers," said Bill Bullard, CEO of R-CALF. "The final rule will liberalize and relax those longstanding protections that have been scientifically validated and the most effective measures we have as an industry to protect ourselves against the introduction of BSE.”
Bullard added that R-CALF’s priority is to prevent the irreparable harm the U.S. cattle industry will suffer if the border were reopened under the unacceptable conditions contained in USDA’s Final Rule.
According to statistics from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), Canada tested 23,550 animals in 2004 and the province of Alberta tested 7,110. Alberta contains 60-70 percent of the entire Canadian cattle population. Just in Alberta, the target for testing in 2005 is 10,425 head. Nationally, Canada plans to test 30,000 head this year.
U.S. statisticians have indicated to R-CALF that Canada has tested 10 times fewer animals than Belgium where there are 1.5 million head. Belgium tested 300,000 and found 10 cases. It is thought the true prevalence of BSE in Canada is probably close to the same levels found in Europe.
Statisticians also said that if the U.S. returned to 2002 import levels from Canada, the chance of importing at least one case per year is a statistical certainty.
Additionally, opponents of reopening the border say there should be questions and research into why Alberta appears to be a reservoir for the disease.
R-CALF officials have said more needs to be learned about the effectiveness of the Canadian inspection system and the ability of the U.S. to monitor imported cattle.
The other questions R-CALF wants answered are:
• Where is the disease coming from?

• Does the feed ban work?
• Is the rate of disease increasing or decreasing?
• What are the consequences for cattle and what is the actual transmission rate?
• What are the consequences to human health?
Other industry reaction
R-CALF USA was granted an initial injunction to stop USDA from reopening the border to Canadian cattle last spring. At that time, USDA began the process of developing the Final Rule. Frustrated with the delay in reopening the border, the National Meat Association filed with the court a motion for intervener status on Sept. 16.
The judge deliberated and decided that because a Final Rule had not been published yet, there was no need for an intervener. Specifically, the judge said, it was not possible “for either the parties or this Court to discern the direction the case will take once USDA issues its final rule.” However, the judge did expressly leave open the possibility of future intervention.
The final rule, when it was published, rendered R-CALF’s original lawsuit moot. But, R-CALF’s latest suit establishes a new case in which the NMA is seeking permission to enter.
On Feb. 1, NMA filed a motion to intervene as both a defendant and a cross plaintiff. “R-CALF is exporting American packinghouse jobs to Canadian businesses,” said NMA executive director Rosemary Mucklow.
As an intervener-defendant, NMA opposes R-CALF’s effort to enjoin and delay the implementation of USDA’s new regulation reopening the Canadian border to imports of live cattle from Canada.
NMA’s cross-claim against USDA also seeks to bar the importation of beef from Canadian cattle 30 months and older until U.S. slaughterers can purchase these same cattle.
USDA’s Animal Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) released a “Response to R-CALF” factsheet last Thursday that provides detailed responses to the seven claims made by R-CALF regarding USDA’s extensive risk review in establishing conditions under which it will allow imports of live cattle under 30 months of age and certain other commodities from regions with effective BSE prevention and detection measures. The APHIS factsheet can be found on the agency’s Website.
USDA has up to three weeks to respond to the motion filed by R-CALF, but can respond anytime prior to that. Once USDA responds, R-CALF will have five days to make a final written response to the court before the hearing. — Steven D. Vetter, WLJ Editor and Sarah L. Swenson, WLJ Associate Editor

[FRENCHMAN]

As long as you have a market that is."

Farmers-son..Remember this story…One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on her head.
"Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."

Well the border did not open to live cattle on March 7 like we were told it would but the sky is not falling. As far as I know there is no court hearing scheduled with Cebull to close the border to live cattle. The lawsuit that R-Calf has launched against the USDA proposed rule deals with live cattle, not boxed beef. Although anything is possible last time I checked the sky was not falling. There is a market for our beef today and there will be a market for our beef tomorrow.



farmers-son..And what happens if R-Calf is rubbed out of existence? Assume for a minute we sue the bastards right off the face of the earth. Lets face it, R-Calf is just a name, the protectionist sentiments that drive organizations like R-Calf would still be there and another protectionist group would rise from the ashes.

R-Calf has achieved what success they have because the USDA has let them. The USDA is still going to be there if R-Calf disappeared and when this administration decides it is time to open the border to live cattle the border will open. Until then build packing plants.

I believe the talk of boxed beef trade beef trade being stopped is being spread by people who do not want to see packing capacity being built in this country, especially by producers. Look at who is talking that talk and see who they are. Figure it out for yourself.

Frenchman...I,m not against increased packing in this country..as long as we have a clear and definite market for our product.Other than the U.S.A.

Is it wise to put so many eggs in one basket.

[farmers_son]

I see nothing in your paste that indicates to me that R-Calf is set to stop boxed beef trade that resumed as a result of the August 2003 decision.

Re: Is it wise to put our eggs in one basket. Lets not forget that our eggs are in two baskets, our domestic market is still number one and the U.S. is number two. I would think we are darn lucky to have any basket.

I am not about to turn my back on the U.S. market, still the number one beef import market in the world and a market that we have special access to through NAFTA. Rumours of the U.S. border closing to boxed beef have little basis in fact and appear to be spread by interest groups that wish to stir up needless fear and anxiety concerning increased packing capacity in Canada.