Just wondering?

[smcgrath76]

Regardless of whether or not feed was selling on the free market system, some disreputable individuals were misrepresenting the product they had for sale.
Agreed, nobody was forced to buy it but in with an extreme feed shortage and livestock owners in a desparate straits, it was a unique situation.
Some folks around this area sent their cows away, only to have them come home in a horrible state, of course with all things it is buyer beware. I know that I will never buy feed from anyone that I haven't dealt with again without looking at the damn stuff....and that is unfortunate because I do like to take a persons word. Thats the way I was raised and the way I operate.

[cowman]

I suspect most people have considered the situation we find ourselves in and have probably also considered getting out? That is definitely an option?
In reality we do need the American market to provide competition? Frankly I don't really care if it is Cargill screwing me or XL or Sunterra? I really don't see any producer plants getting underway or am I wrong? What happened with that one just west of Edmonton?
I still say our governments(both federal and provincial) have basically botched this thing and continue to dither and fret while doing nothing?
In the meantime the national cowherd continues to grow and the farmers/ranchers get older and poorer!
In a way, if the USA closed the border to boxed beef it might force the government to actually do something instead throw a few dollars to the peasants?
Maybe they need to realize that if they have no real intention of supporting a viable farm/ranching industry in this country, then it might be helpful to bring in some programs that help get rid of the peasants? Buy them out, pay them not to produce, retrain them so they can become a benifit to society instead of a major drag on the taxpayer!
If the government had the guts to fight the "grain wars" twenty years ago we wouldn't be in this mess? Their claim then was they didn't have the money! However they seem to always have a lot of money for completely idiot schemes like the gun registry? Or Kyoto? or just about anything Quebec might desire?

[grassfarmer]

"Buy them out, pay them not to produce, retrain them so they can become a benifit to society instead of a major drag on the taxpayer!"

Cowman, here is a suggestion on that theme from the UK.
With the new subsidy regime that seeks to remove payment for production in favour of a more environmental policy which pays $ perhectare if you do certain things. One is a per hectare payment if producers harvest their grain crops with a binder rather than a combine. I'm not sure if this is to help the countyside look pretty or to supply some budding new generation thatchers (read hippies)with roofing supplies. Is this really a better use of taxpayer money than producing food at home versus importing food using finite oil supplies to transport it?

[cowman]

The fact of the matter grassfarmer is the farmers everywhere just produce to much darned food.
The food bill has become a very minor cost for most people in North America? Now not for everyone for sure but for most people?
The trick here is to get production more in line with demand? Well that and get the money into the hands of the people who actually produce the food instead of all the greedy parasites "value adding"?
The western prairies used to produce a whole lot of grain...still do...but the fact is the prairie grain farmer has some very high inputs and he can't compete with the export subsidies of Europe or the USA? If the prairie farmer got the same subsidies for his grain as the Europeans or Americans, I doubt there would be a glut of cattle in this country?
The cattle industry(and the hog industry) expanded here for one reason...the death of the CROW rate! Unfair subsidy, you see? That is what the WTO said, even though the US and European subsidies were ridiculously high! And our wonderful politicians saw it as an opportunity to save a few bucks for more important things like adscam, and pouring the extra revenue into Quebec so they wouldn't upset the apple cart!
We have truly had very poor government for quite a few years? Actually for a whole lot of years!
This whole country is focussed on one thing....keeping Quebec in a federation that has always relied on screwing the outlying areas to feed the heartland? Whatever Quebec wants Quebec gets and Ontario will always support that idea because they know if Quebec goes the west won't be far behind! And then who will they screw?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman,
"The fact of the matter grassfarmer is the farmers everywhere just produce to much darned food."
It's a shame ag producers still believe this lie - world food reserves have been at dangerously low levels for several years in a row now and millions go to bed hungry every day.
It is a lie propogated by the corporations who seek to control the worlds wealth. One way to do this is to convince grain farmers that their grain is only worth the same as it was 20 years ago because of the huge grain surpluses. They are fooling you by juggling inventory around the world to make it look like your grain is worthless while at the same time increasing input costs to the point where the majority of producers keep on farming (but only just) despite making little or no money of their crops.
I agree that consumers in N. America spend less of their income on food than ever before (now less than on entertainment - imagine that).
The other side of this coin is that through their taxes consumers are also paying for agricultural support to farmers to keep them on the land. They are paying directly into our pockets to replace the money removed by the transnational corporations wealth extraction policies.
And still you feel these big Corporations are conducting acceptable business?

[grassfarmer]

The fact is grassfarmer that the ag support given by the government is just a pittance, many of our ag producers have just adjusted to a lower standard of living.
No farmer would mind donating some of what they produced to help those in famine torn countries if in fact the food got to where it was needed. I don't really think there are many that go without basic food in Canada, that could not change their situation if they adjusted their lifestyles, but I do want to make it clear that I have a lot of compassion for the working poor in this country that are really trying their best, and having a tough time making ends meet, that would include a lot of our ag producers . The unfortunate ones that are affected mostly by any tough times are the children, and those that can't fend for themselves.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald I guess it depends on individual circumstances and what you would call a pittance. With my 2003 CAIS payment and Calf Set-aside money I've received around $300 per cow since December. I don't consider that a pittance.
Not that I'm happy with the situation - I didn't need that much and I hate Government money being wasted in this way. I really hate the way this system works as it was part of the reason I moved from Europe.
The taxpayer will come to resent the amount of bailout money we receive, yet as producers we can do nothing to stop the value theft from the production chain as the politicians feed at the same trough as the Corporation parasites.
The situation we are in makes me very uneasy.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer, don't you think you are going to lose that $200 per calf that you received in setaside money when you market them ? Anything with setaside tags right now is being discounted like crazy.
The way I looked at it, a person that sold their calves last fall, including their heifer calves, saved the money on feed and can buy pairs now or could have picked up some decent breds a month ago that were late calving for around what they got for their calves last fall. Not much in the way of additional feed and still been money ahead.
I don't know of anybody that would trade the pre BSE prices of two years ago for all the CAIS, Setaside and every other government program out there.

The last thing I would want is for people that aren't involved in agriculture to think that we are all doing great with government aid programs !

[grassfarmer]

Emrald, I didn't blindly setaside tag calves and hope for the border to open. I tagged some of my very smallest calves last fall and sold them in December - didn't lose a cent on them. Then I tagged my replacement heifers and a couple of bulls I kept - no risk there either. Finally I tagged a handful of fall born calves and a group of grass fatteners that won't be sold / slaughtered before 1st October anyway. Remember on a per head basis they were $200 but only on 40% of your herd so that only actually came to $80 per cow of the $300.

You must have seen some cheap pairs or breds recently to be a better buy than retaining your own heifers last fall. Many of those early sold calves didn't bring $500 and it has been a cheap winter to feed any class of cattle.

"I don't know of anybody that would trade the pre BSE prices of two years ago for all the CAIS, Setaside and every other government program out there.
The last thing I would want is for people that aren't involved in agriculture to think that we are all doing great with government aid programs !"

No one holds these sentiments stronger than me Emrald - remember this is my second time through with BSE. I hate farming Government but I have enough experience of it to give me an advantage over many producers here which keeps my head above water.
Sadly I fear that the route we are on will lead to a consumer backlash at some point, it did in the UK. You maybe won't see it in Red Deer but they don't have a lot of Ag roots in Toronto where it really matters. That is my fear.

[blackjack]

...I think the only reason government make up these programs to pretend they are helping out the ag. industry...meanwhile hiring numerous bureaucrats...that know nothing about agriculture in the first place...and what is their cut of the pie that supposedly the taxpayer thinks goes to the farmer...