Hard life?

[grassfarmer]

Carrying on from a comment Emrald was making on another thread about people struggling from morning till night to run cows - need it be this way?

I've loved the move to Canada as it has allowed me to pursue the idea of working smarter instead of harder.
In Scotland there was lots of work built in by the history, small stone build steadings that didn't suit mechanical feeding of animals, 10 acre fields all enclosed with 5 foot high "stone fences", poor quality land that was nearly all tile drained (clay pipes set at 20 yard intervals to keep our soils drier.)All these things were built in the 1800s and are needing replaced or improved yet there is no cheap or easy way to do so.

So to me Canada has many advantages - the first being that life here can be a lot less "grunt" work.
Combining that with a move closer to nature with a cattle herd really cuts the work down so that I don't know why more people don't try it.
This later calving, out on banked/new grass is totally different to winter calving. All the stories of working dawn to dusk, calving in barns,calving in muddy corrals or snowbanks and frozen ears is self inflicted. By calving later you avoid all these things plus as a bonus I find that you never lose calves with the waterbag over their heads, many of the bad uddered cows manage to get suckled just fine when the calf is standing on dry grass with the sun on his back rather than in the muddy or frozen corrals. You also get greatly enhanced fertility in the cows yet they will cost you less to feed through the winter.
I realise now that much of my hard work in the past was not "helping the cows" rather it was time spent fighting nature. If we quit doing that and allow nature to take it's course life is so much easier. Let the cows do the work while we get the time to enjoy this great life.

[cswilson]

Switching from winter to may calving sure breathed new life into this place-calving is moore like summer holidays than work any more. Were on the vege of starting alot of bagged up cows out there. With my custom A'I business my kids calve out the cows alot of times not many Feb. calvers can leave a pair of teenagers run the outfit at that time of year. To each their own but if you ever try it you will never go back.

[cswilson]

In this area most people want the calving done before they get busy with the field work. Any pairs that are going out to the community grazing reserves, and lots of them are, need to have some age on the calves before they get turned out.
I used to start calving the end of January, then moved to the end of February, early March. This year it wasn't too bad, a big dump of snow mid march but nothing like some years.
To each his own, but in a wet spring calving in April/May can result in some pretty significant scour problems at least in this area.
I agree that the calves are sure up and going when they don't have to contend with getting a chill when they arrive.
No matter whan a person calves, things are a lot tougher in the cattle business and that is why so many people are getting worn out and ready to throw in the towel.

[grassfarmer]

Each to his own as you say Emrald but this April/May scour issue is a big misunderstanding. I have a neighbour that tells me that story every year - he calves mid Feb - August and hates the March/April calves because they don't "stand up to scours" the way the February calves do.
Scours are a management created problem, nobody treats the deer and buffalo calves and they manage just fine.
What happens with most of these "confinement" operations around here is the cows either get wintered in the corrals or confined there shortly before calving starts. So despite the piles of straw bedding people put out the calves are still born into a dirty environment. As calving progresses the later born calves are born not only into the filth of the cows winter bedding pack but the manure of older calves - little wonder they run into problems.

Calving out on banked pasture once the snow has gone gives a perfectly clean bed plus it gives the cows at least part of their feed. I find a real bonus of that is the cows don't feel the need to attend the daily scrum of cow feeding. The young calves tend to remain in the spot they were born for the first few days rather than trail around after the cows - again this is something I know the fawns do so we must be getting closer to nature.

We tried a new system this year that I read about in Cattleman magazine which seems to be the icing on the cake.
We start with the cows in one group and calve for 10 days in the first field. Then we move out the pregnant cows to a new field and so on. Having 10 days or less age difference between calves in any one field prevents older ones passing one anything to the newborns.

[kpb]

grassfarmer, I agree with most of what you say regarding late calving--I don't find calving too work-intensive at all and we're also doing a lot of feeding of yearlings at the same time. If you start calving in early April in a large clean field and you've used the right bulls it's rare to have a whole lot of work to do--I can't remember the last time we pulled a calf or worried about scours or water bag over the head--many years ago for sure.

But I would point out before we get too carried away that deer have a conception rate of about 60% and many fawns are lost to disease and other factors. I agree with doing things as close to nature as possible but if we want to make money from the cows sometimes they need a little man-made help.

kpb

[cowman]

The boy has close to 100 calves out of 146. Most of them have calved out in the bush except for the forty he bought and some heifers in a corral. Hardly any problems this year.
Jan./Feb. calfs are virtually scour free...or at least that has been my experience? I have not bought any scour medication in about twenty years. I find occasionally I got a few cases in March but the trick of the trade is use lots of straw. Scours are easily treated with the old "bleach" trick.
People knock winter calving and I will agree the work can be brutal! And I will also agree the money just isn't there anymore, but there was a time when the farmer feeder wanted that big exotic crossbred calf weighing right around that 750 plus weight range and he paid very well for them! Then it was worth it...in my opinion! The farmer feeder as we knew them have basically all packed it in and now you either keep your calves or practically give them away in the fall.
In 1992 I sold steer calves (Jan/Feb) right off the cow on Nov. 7th for $970! I believe they averaged right around 780 lb. with a 24 hour shrink. Now I'm not just too sure how that relates to todays prices but at $1.25/lb. in 1992 what would the equivalent be in 2005? We've been shopping around for a new pickup and I really doubt we'll get it done for under $40,000! In 1992 we bought a new chev 4X4 for $18,500, so I guess we could say prices have at the very least doubled? So if I was getting $1.25 X 2, or $2.50/lb. for 780 lb. calves....you bet your boots I'd be happy to be winter calving!
The sad part of all this is the fact that those 780 lb. calves should be worth $1950 if calf prices had kept up with inflation! Now I suspect if I was getting that kind of money I might not resent getting up at 2 AM on a Minus 40 degree night! We were set up for it and it was very profitable!
The cattle business really sucks right now and I truly wonder if we will ever see decent prices again?

[cowman]

grassfarmer you have some excellent comments on scours, but proper management with winter calving can certainly go a long way to prevent scours as well.
For starters, I don't let anyone walk through my calving areas in calving time, that way outside 'bugs' aren't brought in.
Feeding the cattle in one area, bringing them in to calve and turning the pairs out in a completely different area where the last years manure and bedding has been removed seems to have worked well here over the years as one way of preventing scours.
Calves that are weak and get a poor start are usually the ones that seem the most prone to scours. I have never had many calving problems with my herd so the calves are usually up and going soon after birth.

[kato]

In Manitoba, if you want to send a cow to the PFRA, she has to have a calf at side. This a strategy to help assure that the pastures stay free of Trich. No calf, no pasture. That fact alone determines the calving dates a lot of our neighbours have.

I think the best thing is for everyone to pick what works best. This spreads the market out, with cattle of all sizes and types available year round. For us, Jan and Feb work best, because our cows go quite a distance to pasture, and there's no way we're leaving them 70 miles from home to calf. Just not going to happen. Besides, if we are paying pasture fees based on a pair, then both halves of the pair might as well be actually grazing. LOL

I agree with cowman about the low scour problems in Jan and Feb. We find the same thing here. We're set up way better for cold than we are for mud. The only two calves I've ever had to put in the tub due to hypothermia have been April calves.

[kato]

kato, I too am more equipped to handle winter calving, I hate to try and chase a damn cow in mud up to my knees !!!
Cold weather in April and heavy snowfalls in May can certainly put pressure on spring calving... Whatever works best is the way to go !!

[grassfarmer]

KPB, I didn't know that about deer and conception rates. We are not having any troubles in that department anyways. 1.8% open and another 1.8% slipped to fall calvers. Over 70% of cows bred were calved by day 23 this year with the rest close behind.

Cowman, I wonder about the growth rates on these hard weather calves. I imagine it would be easy for a weather stressed early born calf to gain quite a lot less than one that doesn't have to fight nature. How much milk do they get in March versus a May born one? If they gain 2lbs a day for two months instead of 3lbs a day because they were born before the grass that loses 20 days age advantage(20x3lbs = 60lbs)by sale time yet you have still incurred the extra cost of the winter calving cow.
I've seen three operations since coming to Alberta that January calved (two are purebred herds) that had severe annual problems with sick calves in April - the damage done to their lungs when it was -40 causing pneumonia when the weather warmed up. Makes me wonder how many of these purebred bulls are actually the product of a pretty unhealthy upbringing!
I don't think we can dream of getting inflation adjusted calf prices any time soon so we may as well get after cutting production costs by stopping fighting nature.

Kato, I know you have brought up this problem about sending cattle away to pasture so they need to be born earlier if you want to get full benefit of your grazing fees. I'm not in the position of sending cattle away but I can see that it makes sense for you. That said I personally wouldn't consider sending cattle away to pasture and making their winter feed at home.
One of my neighbours was pointing out during the drought how lucky I was to be able to afford to buy in feed versus making my own with all the work involved. That's one way of looking at it - I reckon I can't afford the luxury of buying land at current values to grow feed and I certainly don't have the desire nor money to run a full range of hay and crop machinery.

[kpb]

kato and grassfarmer, I don't want to tell anyone what to do regarding shipping pairs but I would like to relate to you our experience. Every year for the past 12 years we have sent at least five liner loads (42 pairs per liner) and sometimes up to eight liner loads on a five and one half hour trip to our northern ranch. We begin calving on March 25 and most of our calves are born in April and May.

Most years our pasture up north is ready in mid-May. This year the fellow who looks after our northern ranch just phoned yesterday to tell us to send a load. The minimum age for the pairs we send is two weeks but we have made mistakes and sent them as young as one week old. We have never, not once, lost a calf on the ride up there and never to my knowledge lost a calf in the days following the trip. Mostly we do not lose many calves on pasture and generally the few we do to bears or injury.

We use Westland Trucking and have for many years--they have conscientious drivers and they all, without exception, straw the area in their trucks where the calves are riding. If a new driver comes without straw we give him some bales and ask him to straw the calf area and they are always willing.

The calves are hungry when they come off after their five and half hour ride but this is good since it means they mother up right away. We keep them on one quarter for a few days until we are sure they are paired up, then they are put on the big pasture.

kato, I know you have your own system and what works for one doesn't always work for everyone. Just wanted to let you know that you can calve in April and still feel confident about sending the calves on a long trip soon after birth.

kpb

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I totally agree that cutting costs and surviving is where it is at right now...and probably will be in the foreseeable future. I was pointing out how at one time it really was best to have "high management cattle" and a high management system for my area.
I don't ever see a return to those big exotic crossbreds or the old calve them early and sell that big calf in the fall sort of scenario.
I've never heard of this lung/pneumonia thing and certainly never experienced it. But then our newborns were born inside and never went outside until it was minimum minus twenty(we had a lot of room). I suspect a winter calf does not put on the weight a spring calf does, however when winter calving you feed fairly well, which we never really thought all that much about as we raised our own feed! I would think by buying all your own feed you would have a more realistic view of actual winter feed costs? And I would suggest that is a good thing?
I do wonder though if grass production is really any cheaper than feeding hay/silage/straw/grain? Around here the standard non supervised pasture is $30/month with quite a few prices higher! The economics of owning any land in central Alberta basically demand it? Decent grainland calls for a rental rate of around $60/acre with some higher(heard of a half section that rented this year for $82/acre). If on your standard non fertilized pasture land it takes 2.5 acres to run a cow then we are into that $50/acre at $30/AUM?
My neighbor sends 25 cows to a community pasture every year. By the time he pays the trucking and bull debenture he figures it costs him $21/AUM. However last year he only got 22 calves back! If you figure the calves were each $600 then it cost another $14 AUM for a total of $35/AUM!
I would suspect he could seed down some of his poorer grainland and come out better off?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, I question your terminology of "high management cattle" and a "high management system".
To my mind winter calving cows is a high work, low management system particularily if it is combined with a low or zero management grazing period.
I run a "management intensive grazing" system which is high management, low work system. Management is where the money is at - you spend a relatively short period of time doing $100/hour work versus spend all day every day doing $5 an hour work. This is typically operating machinery to bed cows, haul manure, seed crops, harvest crops, put up hay, haul feed etc.

Feeding cows this last winter has certainly shown that it can be cheaper than renting pasture. Your grazing production estimates would be about right, I reckon we could get 100 AUDs per acre here with good conditions allowing us to run cows for 8 months on 2.5 acres/cow which gives us three "free" months grazing over the typical 5 month grazing season you used in your example.
Remember the value of manure/urine you were telling us about recently in a swathgrazing topic? was it 37 cents per day/per cow? that's one reason I don't send cattle off the place in summer. Ultimately it might reduce our fertiliser bills to zero when used in conjunction with more legumes.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: The "high management" label was a common meaning that all the government experts used to denote big exotic cattle being fed a heavy ration to max out production. They referred to smaller British type cattle running on forage as "low management" cattle.
Yea, the guy(Grant Lukusta(sp?)) said 37 cents a day and I agree with you that it is a good idea to try to put more back in than you take out. Therfore I also agree with you that buying in feed actually gets you an added bonus in soil nutrients!
Oh and by the way if you will come and feed my cows for $5/ hour I will be very happy to spend the winter in Arizona! LOL

[cswilson]

The cost of rented grass is getting too high up here too-that and the fact that the management skills of the guys renting it are pretty sketchy-our yearlings are gonna be drylotted at home-where I can be sure they are getting a decent gain and where they are handy to get at to sell if there;'s a market rally-first time we haven't went to grass with them ever.