Missile Defense

[farmers_son]

So if we have BSE and the U.S. has BSE why are Canadian live cattle and cow beef being embargoed at the U.S. border? I read a news clip last night concerning the new U.S. ambassador to Canada, David Wilkins. Wilkins has strong Bush support. Wilkins saw his priorities as trade and security. Translated: BSE and missile defense. That explains a lot.

This is not about R-Calf anymore if it ever was. If you think Canada will not be put under intense political pressure to buy into the U.S. star wars missile defense plan before Judge Cebull decides the R-Calf vs USDA case on July 27, then I have some lake front property you might be interested in as an investment.

Is boxed beef at risk if Canada does not participate in U.S. missile defense? Will the government participate in missile defense before an election which is anticipated this fall or early in the New Year knowing Quebec is strongly opposed? It is just so much fun owning cattle right now. (Not!)

If this is about missile defense, then there is zero chance the U.S. appeals court will hear the BSE case before July 27.

[silverback]

What is so terrible about allowing the U.S. to shoot down a missle if it were to fly over Canada?? Unreal. If the only thing on Canadian soil were radar sites, how is that infringing on your oh so Canadian rights. If the Liberals and their media clowns told you tomorrow that we were going to spend 2 billion on our own missile defense you would be kissing their boots. Are you really that anti George Bush or are you just stirring the pot on this site to see what kind of reaction comes back??

[farmers_son]

In case there is any misunderstanding I should make it clear as possible.

I am anti George Bush. Not anti American but certainly not pro Bush. I think he is an evil man. The Hitler of our time. Is that plain enough?

What Bush is doing in Iraq is horrible and a crime against humanity. That doesn't make Saddam a nice guy but that is a different matter, two wrongs do not make a right. What Bush is doing to Canadian cattle producers doesn't make me all giggly either. If the Bush administration wanted the border to be open it would be open. Bush hasn't finished punishing Canadians yet. Hope that cleared up and misunderstandings there.

I do not feel I completely understand the missile defense issue, but do see that pressure is going to be applied to Canada and that the Bush administration is using trade in beef to further their political and military agenda. And that is just plain wrong.

I hope I am not so antagonized by the actions of the U.S. admininstration and fellow American beef producers such as R-Calf members towards Canadian cattle producers such as myself that if a missile were to fly over Canada to to the U.S. I would give it a friendly wave as it passed by. But it is coming to that.

The Americans are not making a whole lot of friends right now in Canada. I think it is fair to say that.

My point was that the reopening of the border may be tied to missile defense.

[whiteface]

If in fact, f_s was looking for a reaction and attempting to stir the pot at all, he sure acheived that goal with you silver. Why is it, you're so concerned anyway with whether or not Canada chooses to participate in missile defence? Are you feeling the growing lack of friends that the US certainly excells at and like many other things, want to drag us down with you simply for wanting fair trade that you signed and decided to reneg on. No need to be pissed at Canadians who don't believe that bullying gets anyone anywhere. Sorry about your luck and that most of your personalities have the missiles comeing to you and not to Canada because "we're just so darn nice" and probably would wave as they were on their way to the US given how we're treated in some instances.
If you're interested at all silver, and you probably aren't because you're an American and "know everything" but if you were to tone it down a notch or two, people might be just a tad more willing to play ball with you. Have a good day and no, I'm not expecting a pleasant response.

[FarmRanger]

I am surprised at your comments on Bush farmers_son. "the Hitler of our time" Seriously, for someone who is as apologetic for the Liberals as you are, I am surprised that you would make accusations like that.

I may not be a Bush fan, but calling him a "Hitler" is quite a stretch. That is either making light of Hitler's atrocities, or grossly overstating what Bush is responsible for.

[silverback]

Pay attention whiteface, I am not an American I am a born and bred proud Albertan and Canadian. The point I have tried to make (and obviously not clear enough) is that had Canada not poked a stick into George Bush when they were going to Iraq and had we not told them we were behind them on the missile deal and then backed out when a few people in Toronto thought it might be evil, we would probably be shipping animals of all kinds across the border by now and probably into Japan also. By my count, our Liberal government is way ahead in the insult game between the two countries. Clear enough?

[farmers_son]

Silverback: Your analysis of the situation may well be correct. David Wilkins is taking on the job of U.S. ambassador to Canada at a very interesting and challenging time in the relationship of our two countries.

By the way the former ambassador Paul Celluci now works for Magna Corp, the company owned by Belinda Stronach and her father.

Whether or not Bush needed to have a stick poked in him when he invaded Iraq is a matter for the historians to decide.

[farmers_son]

Anti Bush sentiments haven't done us much good, and thats a fact. I don't agree with all out war in Iraq but I do feel that we could have lent some support, but not troops. Our military is in such a sad state that sending tropps to be slaughtered in Iraq doesn't make one bit of sense.
The missile issue is likely the cause of the border not opening in March. As far as our federal government giving their word then breaking it to the Americans, why should they be treated any different than the rest of us. Our federal government tells fibs to us on a daily basis about one thing or another.

[farmers_son]

FarmRanger: I may have gone a little over the top with my comments and obviously they are just my opinion. I stand by my observations however.

[FarmRanger]

More than a little over the top perhaps. Name one "crime against humanity".

Are your "observations" based on reality, or the kangaroo court of Farenheit 911.

[whiteface]

Sorry, silver, no, I guess I haven't paid attention but as you probably know, I'm not especially hostile and don't believe that shoving back makes good relations...from either side. I do think that our governments could have treated our major trading partners quite a bit better and thus we wouldn't even need to wonder who's turn it is to shove. Please accept my apologies, sliver. Have a good day all!

[farmers_son]

Any discussion about Bush and world politics would only be on topic because of a relationship between Bush's politics and resuming trade in beef.

That said, I would respectfully suggest that Bush's unprovoked attack on Iraq without the approval of the United Nations Security Council would be on par with crimes committed by the infamous Nazi leaders who were tried at Nuremburg in 1948, after World War II.

Hitler justified a "preemptive" strike on Poland based on lies about a non-existent Polish Army attack against Germany. Note any similarities between Bush and Iraq?

The American attack on Iraq without United Nations approval is illegal under international law. It is also clear that the inevitable civilian casualties resulting from such an attack would qualify as crimes against humanity.

As well, Bush and the Americans would be guilty under the Geneva Convention as it relates to treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and Iraq.

Again, this only relates to beef in so far as I believe Bush would not hesitate to play dirty with Canada when it comes to missile defense.

[FarmRanger]

Poland wasn't killing its citizens and burying their bodies in mass graves.
Poland wasn't invading neighboring countries (re:Kuwait)
Poland wasn't ruled by a murdering tyrant, bent on the destruction of Germany.

And as far as not having UN security council sanctions, if the allies would have had to wait for those, we'd all be goosestepping and speaking German right now. If the UN security council was as effective as it should be, there would be a few more Banana republics butchers quaking in their boot right now.
No one can deny that there will be civilian casualty in a war, but the numbers are relatively small (probably smaller than the %stolen by Libs), and may even be less than the numbers Saddam would have murdered during the same time.
I don't like war any more than the next person, but put things in perspective. This antiAmerican rhetoric is not helpful, nor productive.

[FarmRanger]

Also, Hitler wasn't planning on withdrawing replacing the government there with a democracy elected by it's own people.

[silverback]

I am not sure there is a need to apologize as people are hopefully still free to voice their own opinions in this country (just not during election time). I am getting very discouraged that the common sense needed to get our border open has been sacrificed to maintain peoples jobs in Ottawa. Why is it that we have allowed elected people to turn their elected duties into a way of lining their pockets and guaranteed employment?. How is this more acceptable to some than others?

I was always taught that you can get what you want from someone easier with honey than s___. At the moment I want our border open. I think that would cure a lot of problems we have. I also think that only one group of people are willing to be nice to the U.S. for a while to get that going, and it is not Paul Martin, and it is not Jack Layton. If anyone believes that being nasty to the only economic superpower in this world will open our border, please say so now. If the opinion of some is that we can go it alone without the U.S., then why do I not hear the outcry as to why the Liberals are not giving more help to start some packing plants to put the screws to George and their packing industry?? Maybe we can put our old cows on Paul's ships to be processed in our good friends the French or the Germans or the Russians?