Out of the box thinking

[cowman]

Well first of all let me say my grass isn't overgrazed nor do I have a weed/brush problem, at least on the home place. I've never sprayed Graze On on the home place. I have used Tordon 22K on small patches of tansy and toadflax...brought in on a pipeline.
We did spray 80 acres of buck brush(western snowberry) on the half section the boy bought this winter. Graze On at $40/ acre.
Was that a bad idea? Well it was virtually useless so if it cures the problem $40 acre might be pretty cheap grass?
I have sprayed a lot of Graze On(the industrial equivalent) on oil leases and pipelines. I really like it when the landowner doesn't want to use a product with a residue, because that means I'll probably be back the next year!
Personally, for me, it is always the bottom line. Whatever makes me the most money! It is tough making money and justifying added inputs when barley is worth $2, hay $40/ton and calves at 80 cents!
And yet even with cruddy barley prices I still got a cropshare check of $53.80/acre, plus a ton or more per acre of straw plus a few days grazing.
On the hay land the stuff that went into horse hay paid out over $100 per acre after a $43/acre fertilizer bill and a $70 baling and stacking bill. Was that enough? I don't think so but then the prices were very low this year.
There is no right way or wrong way! Just what works best for you? I've attended a lot of grazing seminars etc. over the years and I've taken out of them what works for me, but have never joined the "holistic cult"!
I've seen first hand what chemicals can do for the bottom line on some places and it obviously works for them.
There are times when chemicals are useful and times when they are not. I doubt anyone uses them so they can lose money? And when the weed inspector comes knocking...you will probably be using them whether you believe in it or not!
whiteface: I understand your concern about legumes and you are correct that graze on will clean them out. I believe Graze On should only be used where the weed problem is basically out of control. I have seen some highly managed pastures where they use maximum fertilizer and straight grass that are extremely profitable! I have also used a wick sprayer and roundup on pastures where the owner wanted to keep the clover while getting rid of the thistles and absinthe and it works pretty well...also very cheap!

[cowman]

Oh, one more little thing! A little tip. Dow-Elanco is introducing a new product next year that is going to rock the pasture scene! Haven't even named the product yet but in the test plots I've seen it is going to be a big time winner!
Dow-Elanco stock is pretty high right now but I suspect it will take a steep jump in the next couple of years. Incidently it went up quite a bit this year. A good stock to own.

[grefer]

Grassfarmer:Interesting thread.We decided this winter to start the transition into organic ag.I am not a "tree hugger" as some would label organic producers.I am just tired of all the people with their hands in my pockets.This first year or two will be challenging with no fertilizer or chemical on most of my acres,but after the last four years of drought,grasshoppers and frost,it has given me the will to say to hell with giving all my hard work and good managment to someone else.I in no way am down on those who farm conventionally,but I think we all need to look at where our money to live is actually coming from.In my case, and I think many others,reality is without crop insurance,CFIP,NISA,CAIS,and what ever other form of govt payout might come,many more producers would be toast.This is alot of crap.Look at a graff of gross returns from farming and then at net returns to farmers.The profit is beeing syphoned off with the result being left to the primary producer and the public purse to figure how to keep farmers farming.I know for those that have real good land and are in sure crop areas it probably still pays to farm using chemical and fertilizer,but for many farming on less fertile ground it is becoming like Russian Roulette.Anyway, thanks for starting this thread.It is always interesting to see what others are thinking in agriculture.

[rkaiser]

Cowman, I did not mind reading your post about "whatever works for you" until you labeled a nut like me a holistic cult member.

You know that my initial response to that would have been pretty darn nasty if I had not taken that politically correct writing class last year.

Now I simply reply that a chemical junky like yourself cannot get through his head that there are likely a lot of alternatives, but you feel your way is the right way. You seem to have your numbers in front of you all the time, and they always work for you. Have chemical junkies become a cult, maybe?

[grassfarmer]

Yes Cowman "whatever works for you" is right but spraying weeds and considering it a cure for the problem won't work for you - or anyone else. To be healthy and sustainable a pasture needs diversity of plant types. Monocultures like we get in grain fields are a man made design as nature abhors a vaccuum and will always try to fight back by adding additional species (possibly what you would call weeds)to fill the spaces or if she really doesn't like it she will send insect hordes to destroy it!
Spraying with a toxic chemical kills the soil surface critters - the micro-organism that actually convert a lot of our nutrients into something the soil, and hence plants, can use. So straight away when you spray to kill you are weakening the chance of future healthy production. What it usually does is it simplifies the plant community - meaning less species of plant survive which means straight away nature is fighting back by trying to increase the diversity. So spraying once guarantees the need will arise again - you are paying to get a possible short term benefit but long term you are increasing your problems. Think of the land as a living entity - as it is very much alive. When you need a space suit to handle the chemicals that would burn a hole in your hands think how it is going to burn the land in the same manner.
Oh, and throwing in the little piece about the weed inspector turning up at our door if we don't spray for weeds is a cheap shot at trying to justify spraying. You can't "beat" weeds longterm by spraying but that doesn't mean that some of us using holistic practises can't.

[jensend]

grassfarmer - will you be in lloydminster the end of the month?

[jensend]

grassfarmer with regard to weed inspectors. Municipal Agricultural Service Boards are bound to administer numerous Provincial Acts, one being the Weed Control Act.
There are many weeds that have been designated as noxious by the Province and others by municipalities, the weed inspector has significant powers provided to them to ensure that farmers and industries comply with weed control.
Take a look at the Weed Control Act and see what compliance measures are available.
In most cases the Weed Inspector will provide several suggested alternative measures for controlling specific weeds, one of which might be spraying. Its up to the farmer what sort of weed control he uses but if he gets a weed notice and ignores it the municipality has the authority under the Weed Control Act to use whatever means necessary to remove, control or otherwise eradicate the weeds.

I feel that anyone who sells straw or hay should be able to assure the buyer that it comes from weed free fields, whether weeds in those fields are controlled with spraying or by non chemical means it makes no difference to me as a buyer, but I do not appreciate paying for weeds that will infest my farm and cause me untold grief.

I have used Grazon to control thistles in the pastures....and will continue to do so vs having the weed inspector at my door.

[grassfarmer]

jensend, what's on in Lloydminster?

Emrald, you miss my point - I'm not saying I was going to argue with a weed inspector whether to spray a noxious weed or not. Thus far I haven't encountered a weed inspector - probably because my place isn't contaminated with noxious weeds - and I've achieved that result without the use of chemical sprays.

[rainmaker]

i ranch in sw sask"great sandhills area"big pastures...miles between farms.when there was fires we all raced out and put them out quick,cuz we thought we should."i think it was mainly cuz everyone wanted to show of his latest fire fighting invention lol.we got so good at it that most fires never stood a chance,only a few acres burned.then we had a lightning strike one night...terrible wind,said fire got very big very fast,burned thousands of acres,so we just worked on protecting farm buildings, none lost.burned a lot of grass and brush.today that ground is free of weeds and brush, just grass, and before brush was taking over the grass,ten years later still very little brush has started to grow back through drought and yes, even overgrazing.but i think we have screwed the way nature looks after problems for a very long time,pastures,and yes even our cowherds.are useing sprays as a way to control?i dont know the answer to that,i suspect time will answer that for us.and the vet is not always right..... use commen sence and what works for you.sorry this turned into story time but i do tend to ramble.have a good day all.

[rainmaker]

grassfarmer you are obviously going about weed control in a fashion that works for you and allows you to keep your property chemical free.
Municipalities offer a no spray agreement for people who do not want chemical weed control on the shoulders and ditches of the municipal roads adjacent to their property. By signing the agreement they are responsible for weed control on those areas and can do so by whatever means they choose as long as they don't mow weeds such as Chammomile and spead the weedseeds.

When I was on the Agricultural Service Board and Council we had one woman come in annually and demand that the county adopt a no spray policy countywide. She would call each council member and rant at them for hours on the dangers of chemical weed control, then make an appointment and make a presentation to council. She got to the point of threatening to ensure that all councillors that didn't agree with her would be defeated in the next electon. Some members of the ag community attended one year and voiced their opposition to what she was demanding, saying that they choose to use chemical weed control on their property and wanted the county to keep the ditches clear of weeds as well.
I always feel that whatever management tools one chooses to use and will work are the way they should go, and respect others right to do the same in their own operation.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: You need to educate yourself about certain products. No way does Graze On "burn holes in your hands or require a space suit"!
Further more I am not a "chemical junkie"! Yep, I'll use them if I have to and if it makes economic sense and yes indeed I do make money putting them on for other people. On my own land I do not use sprays except when necessary. And yes, my crop sharer, uses sprays and chemical fertilizer...and yes I do use chemical fertilizer on my hay! And I truly believe I make some money by using them or I wouldn't do it...obviously?
We sprayed the 80 acres to get rid of the buckbrush? We sure as hell don't intend to do it every year?
Somehow or other I offended both you and Randy...by saying what? That chemicals might have a place in agriculture?...Hey I don't use any systematic "chemical" worm killer on my cattle...how about you? Isn't that basically Purdys theory that you both buy into?

[jensend]

grassfarmer - alan savory will be at lloydminster june 27, 28 for a holistic management conference. if you're interested i can fax you the info.
jensend@imagewireless.ca