• You will need to login or register before you can post a message. If you already have an Agriville account login by clicking the login icon on the top right corner of the page. If you are a new user you will need to Register.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Out of the box thinking

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Out of the box thinking

    Continuing a discussion we have been having on the thread "how common is this?" I wanted to highlight some of the "small scale" "niche" operations I've read of in Stockman Grassfarmer that just blow my mind with their potential. I hope you find them interesting. These are all US operations and figures are in US $.

    Today a typical commodity dairy operation of 30 cows without supply management is a hopeless proposition. Gross revenue from milk might total $57,000 (< $2000 per cow) before all the costs of feeding, housing and milking a herd year round plus machinery costs. The bottom line probably looks as exciting as being a small commodity beef producer.

    Instead we have an example of a 30 cow organic herd producing milk seasonally off grass, turning 50% of the milk into high price specialty cheese - grossing $60,000 a year, 25% milk sold to premium raw milk customers and 25% (spring excess production) sold to an organic milk wholesaler. All told this operation grosses $150,000 from it's milk sales off the 30 cows ($5000 per cow). Plus they don't have the costs of winter production, machinery or fertiliser of the conventional operation. Best of all the family reckon they work hard for 6-8 months of the year and holiday or relax the rest of the time.

    Another operation sold all their seasonal grass produced milk as raw unprocessed to eager customers achieving a similar $5000 per cow return and in addition sold grass fattened steers for $5/lb ($3000 - 3700 per head) These guys show how to return huge gross returns off small areas of land - 100 acres would carry the 30 cows plus they both had sideline pasture pork, poultry etc operations on top.

    The most memorable one was a sheep operation run by Americans in Mexico - 200 acres of irrigated alfalfa supporting a flock of over 4000 breeding ewes. They direct market 9000 head of lambs and cull ewes to gross over $1 million. I guess direct marketing in Mexico is a lot different to here as they are probably more used to buying from producers rather than big stores.
    Their main inputs were cheap labour and sunshine with only an old tractor a pickup and a bicycle for machinery! ( I wonder how this would work in southern Ontario or lower mainland BC - close to a big ethnic customer base?)

    Why do most producers in North America beat their heads against the wall wondering why they can't make a living with $2 bu barley on thousands of acres with millions $ tied up in inputs? or cow calf producers run multi hundred cow herds hoping to get $60 a head profit selling feeder calves - it seems clear to me we cannot win this commodity game. The price of land is a thing constantly bemoaned on this site - maybe it's time to make better use of the land we have.
    Use the sun, the water and grass which are all free and cut out all the "input" parasites feeding off the carcase of modern agriculture.

    #2
    Don't know if I told this story before or not, but here goes (again).

    On a bull delivery trip to south west Saskatchewan I was getting close to my customers farm when I noticed some exceptionally well farmed land. Beautiful clean white stubble alongside some freshly seeded black summerfallow. When I got to my guys place I commented on the pride he or his neihbor took in farming this ground. He said it was his neighbors, and proceeded to show me some of his thousands of acres of native grass along with his very well farmed hay, crop rotation. No fertilizer or chemicals but not organic certified.

    We turned a corner to come apon a monster Jonh Deere tractor with a huge air seeder behind. It was on some of the ground that I talked of at the beginning of this story.

    My customer went on to tell me that this fellow, and a number of other forward thinkers in the area were ORGANIC FARMERS. I saw no blown land, but certainly saw productive stubble, and one very expensive seeding unit. Could it be that this fellow and others are making money without lining the pockets of multinational chemical and fertilizer companies. Got to thinking about the possibility of a few less bushels per acre, and how something like that would effect the price of the product if more, OR ALL, farmers farmed this way.

    I am not certified organic, only certified in the mental health industry, but I have not used any commercial chemical or fertilizer for close to 20 years. What would happen if more of us turned off the tap on the sprayer, and shut off the endgate on the fertilizer spreader? I think nothing but good would come.

    Would we not end up dropping overall production, accomplishing kpb's goals without a need for supply management, while only cutting out expenses?

    Would certainly take some gettin used to. 15 years ago, I saw a big difference, but somehow I'm still here.

    Comment


      #3
      I appreciate your comment rkaiser but I don't want others to think I am advocating organic as my number one aim. I like doing things naturally too but do use a small amount of fertiliser. I couldn't operate economically without it because I'm trying to build up a run down place. I'm talking using max 40lbs of actual N per acre on a 1/4-1/3 of my landbase anually. If you buy in your winter feed as standing crop you are using fertiliser by proxy aren't you?

      There is a lot of nonsense tied up with organic designation in Canada - I tell our grassfed beef customers our beef is better than organic as you could produce organic beef in a feedlot it's just a matter of buying in certified organic feed. Cattle finished soley on grass are way better than that! If I decided to cut out fertiliser I could buy in feedlot manure as an alternative - but not if I was organic as feedlot manure is not organic unless it has been produced by cattle eating certified organically produced feed. What nonsense - how can animal manure be anything other than organic?

      Comment


        #4
        You are right about the fact that I buy in feed that may be pumped with commercial fertilizer. Thus our natural, not organic, label. But I do like the idea of shorting the chemical and fertilizer multinationals in exchange for higher prices for less product on an industry wide scale.

        Comment


          #5
          If everyone stopped using chemical fertilizers and sprays it would definitely cut production. In my opinion both are getting to the point where they are becoming basically uneconomical.
          I will note however that certain chemical sprays actually give you a good bang for your buck? Graze On is one example? It can get a pasture back on track if it is over run with thistles, absinthe or buck brush. Not cheap at $21/acre but definitely worth it!
          Now I know you grass types will say that with proper grazing practices you won't get these weeds...and that may be very true...but if you have pastures that have been used hard then Graze On can get you back in the game real fast! The dead plants are usually deep rooted and have all kinds of nutrients stored in their decaying bodies that next years grass can start to use. Seen some pretty amazing results?

          Comment


            #6
            Cowman that's typical of the thinking that allows these chemical makers to remove much of the profit from our industry. Selling you the lie that their spray can remove all the weeds caused by over grazing and bad management in one quick sweep and boost your grass and hence profitability. They are selling you a crutch to allow you to limp along a little longer without actually tackling the problem. And it's only $21 an acre - but how often do you need to use it? every 3 or 4 years? How much "extra grass" do you get from this treatment? I'm willing to bet it's a lot less than you would get by changing your management to prevent the overgrazing which was the cause of the weed problem in the first place.

            Comment


              #7
              I agree with that grassfarmer. Grass is by far the most noxious "weed" out there if we just "let" it grow i.e. rest it from these endless eating machine cows once in a while. The other thing I don't prefer with particularly Graze on and no offense cowman, but it kills absolutly every broad leaf it touches...alfalfa, clover, all trees and ornamental shrubs, which I have many of in my yard and stays in the soil for like, forever, (4 years is a long time and I know of a fellow whose trees have still not encroached any where near the Graze on pasture 7 years later. I like trees. More so I like legume grasses and Graze on sure limits your grazing choices for many years beyond your decision. Even if you were looking to sell your place. I wouldn't buy one that had certain stuff poured on it and your place does get labelled as one that has had that chemical put on it.
              As far as chemical in general, I'm with you all the way Randy. Huge input cost and for not a whole lot of real positive return that I can see anyway. I may just be going blind in my old age. But then, I find a whole wack of stuff isn't economical...
              Hoof trimming, preg checking (I know who the bull is chasing too late in the season), vitamin and e. coli shots (feed and bed them properly for crying out loud) and I got a whole lot more but I'm guessing I'll have to fend off and justify most of what I've already said...
              My imput costs are waaaaay down and thus, I'm one of the ones still here how many years later and with cows I'm certain are actually more healthy than they've ever been. The price of the land and taxes here may kill me but the "extra" input costs have disappered. Hope you all get some rain today so your grass grows! Have a good day all!

              Comment


                #8
                Interesting!!!
                The comments on Graze On brought me into this one.
                Graze On $21 per acre
                There is a great product called 2-4-D that is the same thing (but a lot less money).
                That said, I appreciate that people have seen amazing results from using Grazon. We do not (will not) use it at home as it does not solve the problem, it treats the symptoms. It is like taking an aspirin for the pain of a heart attack, and not addressing the heart attack.
                That said, Grazon (and other tools) may be part of the solution for those graziers/ranchers/others who wish to make several management changes at the same time. I can see Grazon as being useful to renovate old pasture if the grazing system is altered in conjunction with it's use. We have opted to adjust our grazing system over the past 50 plus years (continually), and have found that we can permanently outdo the effects of chemical treatments. Quite frankly, $21 and acre can built a lot of fence/water/etc.
                Just my thoughts.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Whiteface it's great how removing the crutches and doing things more naturally makes everything work better. Our calving is drawing to a close and it's the best i've ever had. Bred 114 head last summer and have 105 calves on the ground after 51 days (we had 80 in the first 23 days), 4 more imminent with two other cows joining my fall calving herd. Three cows open, two I picked up in the fall and sold but one wasn't cycling so I missed her - but who wants the hassle, let alone the cost of preg checking over 100 cows to identify one extra open? Vet bills are $70 so far for one diagnosis although we have bought some drugs recently for the one poor calf in the herd (pneumonia type symptoms - should probably have been more ruthless and not treated it). No Scourguard and no scours, no vitamin and mineral shots, no corral or barn calving, no frozen ears or tails, virtually no work, lost only one calf that was born alive - to misadventure.
                  As they say nature is one hell of a lot smarter than us if we just assist her rather than fight her!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It's sure working for me... doing a lot less "manageing" I mean. Shocks me at times at how much money I've thrown away on crap I don't need but a salesman convinced me I did. How much rain have y'all had so far. Barely a spit here. Have a good day all!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Looks like about a 1/4 inch at the Ponoka pasture , and 3/10's so far here at Crossfield. Better than a poke in the a$$ with a dull stick.

                      Sure had a nice day after you answered that question for me this morning whitey.

                      I like the thoughts of everyone else on this thread as well, except of course for cowmans graze on.

                      Have to get you back grassfarmer for pointing out my inconsistancy in "fertilized" bought feed. Your excuse for laying out the cost for a wee little bit of nitrogen could also be adjusted with another electric fence or two, or a simple drop of a couple grazing units.
                      We all know we can up production with the shoit, but we also know it really does not help in the big picture.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Sorry I don't follow you Randy - you mean I should either keep less cows or tighten up the grazing intensity of the ones I've got now to apply more manure to replace the fertiliser? I'm trying to find the balance like the rest of you between being over and understocked - fertiliser lets me grow more grass and keep more stock which speeds the regeneration cycle through more manure and more herd impact. I'd really like to winter custom feed cows for someone on my pastures but thus far haven't found anyone wanting that service that calves at a sensible time of year.
                        Besides I'm working on my fertiliser addiction! - in Scotland we spread every acre we could physically get onto every year - up to three times on the limited good land. And that is way less than a Dutchman we both know - he used a tonne of actual N per acre (or possibly per hectare?)per year - now that's a lot of fizz!!.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Well first of all let me say my grass isn't overgrazed nor do I have a weed/brush problem, at least on the home place. I've never sprayed Graze On on the home place. I have used Tordon 22K on small patches of tansy and toadflax...brought in on a pipeline.
                          We did spray 80 acres of buck brush(western snowberry) on the half section the boy bought this winter. Graze On at $40/ acre.
                          Was that a bad idea? Well it was virtually useless so if it cures the problem $40 acre might be pretty cheap grass?
                          I have sprayed a lot of Graze On(the industrial equivalent) on oil leases and pipelines. I really like it when the landowner doesn't want to use a product with a residue, because that means I'll probably be back the next year!
                          Personally, for me, it is always the bottom line. Whatever makes me the most money! It is tough making money and justifying added inputs when barley is worth $2, hay $40/ton and calves at 80 cents!
                          And yet even with cruddy barley prices I still got a cropshare check of $53.80/acre, plus a ton or more per acre of straw plus a few days grazing.
                          On the hay land the stuff that went into horse hay paid out over $100 per acre after a $43/acre fertilizer bill and a $70 baling and stacking bill. Was that enough? I don't think so but then the prices were very low this year.
                          There is no right way or wrong way! Just what works best for you? I've attended a lot of grazing seminars etc. over the years and I've taken out of them what works for me, but have never joined the "holistic cult"!
                          I've seen first hand what chemicals can do for the bottom line on some places and it obviously works for them.
                          There are times when chemicals are useful and times when they are not. I doubt anyone uses them so they can lose money? And when the weed inspector comes knocking...you will probably be using them whether you believe in it or not!
                          whiteface: I understand your concern about legumes and you are correct that graze on will clean them out. I believe Graze On should only be used where the weed problem is basically out of control. I have seen some highly managed pastures where they use maximum fertilizer and straight grass that are extremely profitable! I have also used a wick sprayer and roundup on pastures where the owner wanted to keep the clover while getting rid of the thistles and absinthe and it works pretty well...also very cheap!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Oh, one more little thing! A little tip. Dow-Elanco is introducing a new product next year that is going to rock the pasture scene! Haven't even named the product yet but in the test plots I've seen it is going to be a big time winner!
                            Dow-Elanco stock is pretty high right now but I suspect it will take a steep jump in the next couple of years. Incidently it went up quite a bit this year. A good stock to own.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Grassfarmer:Interesting thread.We decided this winter to start the transition into organic ag.I am not a "tree hugger" as some would label organic producers.I am just tired of all the people with their hands in my pockets.This first year or two will be challenging with no fertilizer or chemical on most of my acres,but after the last four years of drought,grasshoppers and frost,it has given me the will to say to hell with giving all my hard work and good managment to someone else.I in no way am down on those who farm conventionally,but I think we all need to look at where our money to live is actually coming from.In my case, and I think many others,reality is without crop insurance,CFIP,NISA,CAIS,and what ever other form of govt payout might come,many more producers would be toast.This is alot of crap.Look at a graff of gross returns from farming and then at net returns to farmers.The profit is beeing syphoned off with the result being left to the primary producer and the public purse to figure how to keep farmers farming.I know for those that have real good land and are in sure crop areas it probably still pays to farm using chemical and fertilizer,but for many farming on less fertile ground it is becoming like Russian Roulette.Anyway, thanks for starting this thread.It is always interesting to see what others are thinking in agriculture.

                              Comment

                              • Reply to this Thread
                              • Return to Topic List
                              Working...