Out of the box thinking

[rkaiser]

Cowman, I did not mind reading your post about "whatever works for you" until you labeled a nut like me a holistic cult member.

You know that my initial response to that would have been pretty darn nasty if I had not taken that politically correct writing class last year.

Now I simply reply that a chemical junky like yourself cannot get through his head that there are likely a lot of alternatives, but you feel your way is the right way. You seem to have your numbers in front of you all the time, and they always work for you. Have chemical junkies become a cult, maybe?

[grassfarmer]

Yes Cowman "whatever works for you" is right but spraying weeds and considering it a cure for the problem won't work for you - or anyone else. To be healthy and sustainable a pasture needs diversity of plant types. Monocultures like we get in grain fields are a man made design as nature abhors a vaccuum and will always try to fight back by adding additional species (possibly what you would call weeds)to fill the spaces or if she really doesn't like it she will send insect hordes to destroy it!
Spraying with a toxic chemical kills the soil surface critters - the micro-organism that actually convert a lot of our nutrients into something the soil, and hence plants, can use. So straight away when you spray to kill you are weakening the chance of future healthy production. What it usually does is it simplifies the plant community - meaning less species of plant survive which means straight away nature is fighting back by trying to increase the diversity. So spraying once guarantees the need will arise again - you are paying to get a possible short term benefit but long term you are increasing your problems. Think of the land as a living entity - as it is very much alive. When you need a space suit to handle the chemicals that would burn a hole in your hands think how it is going to burn the land in the same manner.
Oh, and throwing in the little piece about the weed inspector turning up at our door if we don't spray for weeds is a cheap shot at trying to justify spraying. You can't "beat" weeds longterm by spraying but that doesn't mean that some of us using holistic practises can't.

[jensend]

grassfarmer - will you be in lloydminster the end of the month?

[jensend]

grassfarmer with regard to weed inspectors. Municipal Agricultural Service Boards are bound to administer numerous Provincial Acts, one being the Weed Control Act.
There are many weeds that have been designated as noxious by the Province and others by municipalities, the weed inspector has significant powers provided to them to ensure that farmers and industries comply with weed control.
Take a look at the Weed Control Act and see what compliance measures are available.
In most cases the Weed Inspector will provide several suggested alternative measures for controlling specific weeds, one of which might be spraying. Its up to the farmer what sort of weed control he uses but if he gets a weed notice and ignores it the municipality has the authority under the Weed Control Act to use whatever means necessary to remove, control or otherwise eradicate the weeds.

I feel that anyone who sells straw or hay should be able to assure the buyer that it comes from weed free fields, whether weeds in those fields are controlled with spraying or by non chemical means it makes no difference to me as a buyer, but I do not appreciate paying for weeds that will infest my farm and cause me untold grief.

I have used Grazon to control thistles in the pastures....and will continue to do so vs having the weed inspector at my door.

[grassfarmer]

jensend, what's on in Lloydminster?

Emrald, you miss my point - I'm not saying I was going to argue with a weed inspector whether to spray a noxious weed or not. Thus far I haven't encountered a weed inspector - probably because my place isn't contaminated with noxious weeds - and I've achieved that result without the use of chemical sprays.

[rainmaker]

i ranch in sw sask"great sandhills area"big pastures...miles between farms.when there was fires we all raced out and put them out quick,cuz we thought we should."i think it was mainly cuz everyone wanted to show of his latest fire fighting invention lol.we got so good at it that most fires never stood a chance,only a few acres burned.then we had a lightning strike one night...terrible wind,said fire got very big very fast,burned thousands of acres,so we just worked on protecting farm buildings, none lost.burned a lot of grass and brush.today that ground is free of weeds and brush, just grass, and before brush was taking over the grass,ten years later still very little brush has started to grow back through drought and yes, even overgrazing.but i think we have screwed the way nature looks after problems for a very long time,pastures,and yes even our cowherds.are useing sprays as a way to control?i dont know the answer to that,i suspect time will answer that for us.and the vet is not always right..... use commen sence and what works for you.sorry this turned into story time but i do tend to ramble.have a good day all.

[rainmaker]

grassfarmer you are obviously going about weed control in a fashion that works for you and allows you to keep your property chemical free.
Municipalities offer a no spray agreement for people who do not want chemical weed control on the shoulders and ditches of the municipal roads adjacent to their property. By signing the agreement they are responsible for weed control on those areas and can do so by whatever means they choose as long as they don't mow weeds such as Chammomile and spead the weedseeds.

When I was on the Agricultural Service Board and Council we had one woman come in annually and demand that the county adopt a no spray policy countywide. She would call each council member and rant at them for hours on the dangers of chemical weed control, then make an appointment and make a presentation to council. She got to the point of threatening to ensure that all councillors that didn't agree with her would be defeated in the next electon. Some members of the ag community attended one year and voiced their opposition to what she was demanding, saying that they choose to use chemical weed control on their property and wanted the county to keep the ditches clear of weeds as well.
I always feel that whatever management tools one chooses to use and will work are the way they should go, and respect others right to do the same in their own operation.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: You need to educate yourself about certain products. No way does Graze On "burn holes in your hands or require a space suit"!
Further more I am not a "chemical junkie"! Yep, I'll use them if I have to and if it makes economic sense and yes indeed I do make money putting them on for other people. On my own land I do not use sprays except when necessary. And yes, my crop sharer, uses sprays and chemical fertilizer...and yes I do use chemical fertilizer on my hay! And I truly believe I make some money by using them or I wouldn't do it...obviously?
We sprayed the 80 acres to get rid of the buckbrush? We sure as hell don't intend to do it every year?
Somehow or other I offended both you and Randy...by saying what? That chemicals might have a place in agriculture?...Hey I don't use any systematic "chemical" worm killer on my cattle...how about you? Isn't that basically Purdys theory that you both buy into?

[jensend]

grassfarmer - alan savory will be at lloydminster june 27, 28 for a holistic management conference. if you're interested i can fax you the info.
jensend@imagewireless.ca

[rkaiser]

Look back at your earlier post cowman, and then tell me what the word cult means to you.

Sorry I barked back with the chemical junkie label, you obviously see some of the truth about over doing it.

As far as the money and the facts about sprays; all I can say is, you can live in the fanatsy world you call reality and I'll live in the the fanasty world I call my reality.

Kind of makes me feel good that I am doing all I can to to make the world I affect a bit healthier place to be. Probably shouldn't give a sheet I know, but that's just me.

Yes I use Ivomec once a year, but in defence of my belief in Mark Purdey's theory, Ivomec is not an organophosphate. Also the levels of these organophosphates that were used in the UK which disrupted the chemical balance of the cattle affected were at least 20 fold the levels ever used in Canada when Canadians used to use products like Negavon etc.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, The Grazon toxicology info shows that in animals effects have been reported on the following organs: central nervous system, gastro tract, kidney, liver and muscular effects.Product is slightly toxic to aquatic organisms.

In humans contact may cause eye and skin irritation even a burn or allergic reaction in sensitive people.
Not surprising as it contains 2,4-D at 39.6%.
2,4-D has caused nervous system damage in humans from absorbtion through the skin and comes with a warning not to cut hay for 30 days after application to pasture.
I won't be starting to drink it or make my land or animals drink it any time soon.

[farmers_son]

Your comment on drinking 2,4-D reminded me of a story my father told of someone he knew who did take a tablespoon of 2,4-D every day with no apparent ill effects.

There is a case where one terminal patient with disseminated coccidiomycosis was administered 19 doses of 2,4-D intravenously as a "desparation therapy". The patient received a total of 16.3 grams of 2,4-D acid over a 32 day period.

[grassfarmer]

2,4-D got some really bad press in the UK back in the 70's or early 80's as it was implicated in early pregnancy miscarrages in the wives of foresty workers who were using the stuff. I may be wrong but I think it was banned there for a while if not at present.
Seriously though why would anyone want to drink it?

[grassfarmer]

With the warnings about West Nile, I am wondering what sort of mosquito control you use for people and critters ?


I am allergic to repellent so have to suffer or use straight cider vinegar which seems to work, mind you it does have a very definite aroma to it !

[ALLFARMER]

Grazon is 2-4D picloram. Grazon will leach into ground water so if you use it be sure to stay 30 meters(by law) from water and especially water that could run somewhere else ex. creek to a lake. Grazon breaks down alright with sunlight but can take 5 years if it gets into water. Grazon has a Ag registration so Cowman don't tell to many people your using it on industrial sites. The industrial registration of Grazon is Tordon 101 the only difference is the price, 101 being $15/litre $50/acre. Dow recommends people not consume berries treated with Tordon 101 but when applied at the highest label rate an average person could consume 20 litres of berries per day for the rest of his life without experencing adverse effects. Also it has no adverse effects on animals of insects. Tordon does have a higher toxicity than table salt but is less toxic than Vitamin A, Aspirin, & Nicotine. Tordon 101 is the chemical used the most in Alberta by Municipalitys in roadside spraying programs.