What is "normal" now

[grassfarmer]

kpb and f_s, I don't know of any 1000 cow plus operation that has lasted a generation let alone last more than one generation. Regardless my point was that beef cows are less vunerable to "mega farming" than are intensive poultry, hogs and grain farming for example. If someone was able to tell me that Cargill or Taiwan Sugar Corp. owned or was buying multi thousand cow herds I could see the risk of a mega farm take over of the cow/calf sector.

I certainly agree that the $3 million CAIS margin cap is crazy and puts taxpayer money into the hands of outfits that are not deserving. I would definately not categorise Hutterite colonies in that light for the reasons I mentioned above.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: you are right. I didn't take appreciation into account and that of course is neccessary when calculating a return.
Land is a secure asset and without a doubt the "appreciation" is going up every year in Alberta...however it is also a tied up assett that might not pay enough to continue to operate on?
In regards to Hutterites: An example? A local colony has 59 people living on it and 6,000 acres or about 100 acres/person? If they were on their own they would have about 400 acres/family? They survive because they live very cheap? Think how cheap you might be able to live if you didn't spend any money on any type of luxury? If you could spread the cost of a tractor,truck, car over several families? I doubt many of us would want to live the spartan life they live?
It isn't all roses down on the colony! They have an increasingly difficult time keeping everybody busy? Especially the boys! And hey boys will be boys? An old lady at one of the colonies told me that keeping the boys busy is a major problem. She said " If you can't keep them busy, they soon find a way to do the Devils business"!

[cowman]

Many of the colonies are expanding their operations eg: adding another species or increasing the size of their hog/dairy/poultry or beef feeding operation. Economies of scale affect their bottom line as well, and I think that they do live a less spartan existance these days. They certainly get out and about more. Its not an uncommon sight to see hutterite ladies shopping in various stores just like the rest of us do.
Keeping the 'boys' busy does pose a problem I am sure. my feedlot neighbour hires young hutterites on his operation, they all come from a colony down south and are usually ones that are bucking the system there so they are allowed to get out and work for a year or so, then if they want to come back they can. They have to sit at the back of the church for awhile until they regain their status in the colony.

They usually need a good tuning in at the neighbours when they arrive, they live in onsight accommodation and all of them seem to feel that the ladies of the house are there to wash, scrub and wait hand and foot on them. They get an attitude adjustment fairly soon after their arrival on that issue !

[farmers_son]

Whether we are talking Hutterites or other non religious based mega farms the issue needs to keep focused on what kind of agriculture we want to see prosper in this country and whether there is a level playing field for the family farm or do large farms get that way because of an unfair advantage or special treatment at the hand of government.

A case in point is Hutterite colonies. You might be interested in the following link to a study of HUTTERITE LITIGATION by ALVIN J. ESAU Prof. of Law, University of Manitoba, 1997

See: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/law/Courses/esau/litigation/huttlitigationweb.htm


The issue of Hutterites paying income tax is crucial to understanding their competitive advantage. If the colony as a corporation or as a trust paid income tax on the profits of the colony, the rate would be very high since the colony paid no wages to the workers, which expense would ordinarily be deducted. However an arrangement was struck with the Government of Canada that allowed the colonies to pay income tax on a deemed individual basis.

While the family farm can split income by paying family members wages the money must actually be paid, a cheque issued and an actual expense occurred for the operation. The colonies can split their income as if the money was actually paid but it only a deemed payment, the cash stays within the colony and the actual colony members never see the money or have control of it. This has allowed the colonies to avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in income taxes and better explains their success than availability of cheap labour.