The missing link?

[cowman]

In the big picture most cows start to produce less as they get some age on them? Just about any cow should be able to produce a decent calf up to at least 12 years old? I doubt there is a lot of economic sense in keeping a cow until she is fit only to feed to the coyotes?
If you have to cull for udders or feet or disposition, you need to go back to see what you were doing wrong in your breeding program. A good long term cowherd shouldn't have these problems, unless you are selecting for bad traits?
Perhaps a lot of young first/second calvers are culled because they didn't fit into some tight breeding program that some "expert" told you was the way to go. I agree with cwilson that when you put some pressure on them you are going to get some opens? If you aren't pushing the window you aren't maxxing your profit opportunity? I never get bent out of shape if a young cow comes in a bit late...usually she catches up within a year or two!
The whole concept of a nice uniform calf crop is nice to see but not neccessarily the most profitable? If you sell the whole works right off the cow you are going to take a beating on that little calf, but if you feed him out you'll do okay. A decent presort sale takes a lot of this screwing you out of the market?
Jerryk: There is really no excuse for having calves not dehorned or cut and without a doubt the buyers will make you pay dearly. Probably a lot more than what is fair, but then no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to sell bulls or calves with horns?

[cowman]

The purebred industry puts a lot of stock in EPD's, and I use it as a tool to select herdsires but I usually try and see the mother of any prospective herdbuil that I am interested in purchasing.If his mama happens to be a 12 year old cow with good feet, udder in good shape and is still breeding back for an early calf it tells me that is daughters have a good chance of inheriting those traits. Now, I am not necessarily breeding for longevity,but good feet and udders and fertility are very important criteria .
I don't think that a cow should be kept to the point that she needs any extra care because of her age.
That doesn't make economical sense.

[farmers_son]

Speaking of longevity, our oldest cow calved last month for the sixteenth straight time. Yes she is 18 years old, born in 1987, and looks to be about 10. She has never had assistance to calve, has never missed getting in calf, has never had a calf with scours, has always weaned a calf. Her calves are average to above average. Feet and udder are still good and she is in good condition. There can be no doubt that this cow has been profitable for us. The average age of our cow herd is five years old.

[smcgrath76]

I think that in a lot of herds culling rates are extremely high. We run a commercial herd and the longer we can keep a cow in production the more money she makes us. If we have a cow for 10 calves instead of 2 we can depreciate her at a much slower rate (or get a return from a fully depreciated asset).
I do know that our younger females are better than our older ones though. Our older females are more predictable (we know they have proven themselves) but as we keep using better bulls, more suited to our goals across our predictable cows, in general their offspring are better than they are.
I am interested in what you mean by maternal EPD. Most breeds only provide milk EPD, and selecting for high milk in a limiting environment can negatively impact fertility, and fleshing (easy-keeping) ability. Did you ever see a really fat Holstein?
We look at:
1) the breeder's/semen supplier's program (they have to have one)
2) EPD (from North America, Australia, etc.) for calving ease, growth, carcass, maternal (milk, mature size, heifer pregnancy rate, longevity, etc.)
3) the animal, his dam, his sire, his offspring.

I am actually not that surprised by the high number. I wonder if the age has increased over the last couple of years?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman "Just about any cow should be able to produce a decent calf up to at least 12 years old?" - Agreed!
"...pressure on them you are going to get some opens? If you aren't pushing the window you aren't maxxing your profit opportunity" Agreed, but if you then say you allow cows to be late calvers, effectively keeping opens in the herd that isn't the rigorous culling that cswilson speaks of or that the industry must be doing by implication to have such high cull rates.

Emrald1, "I don't think that a cow should be kept to the point that she needs any extra care because of her age." Agreed, although we have mostly done a little of it these past two years due to low cull cow prices.

Farmers_son, that's the kind of cow i'm talking about - a good old cow. Perhaps the industry needs to use more sons of such cows?

[cswilson]

When I get a sale catalogue -that's first thing I look for is bulls out of older mothers-especially if he was able to perform any where near the herd average.We don't use a cow for flushing until she is at least 12 years old-in fact I'm seriously considering flushing two of our better Angus cross commercial cows to a Hereford bull that I was lucky enough to get some semen on. A herd of black baldie full sisters would be a pretty sweet commercial herd.

[kato]

We bought a bull from a fellow who had a number of twenty year old plus Limo cows in his herd. That bull is now 9 years old and still working. He kept right up with the younger guys last spring in the breeding pasture, but we've kept him back with a couple of late cows to give him a rest. Other than having a problem with some sand cracks a couple of years ago, he has also had trouble free feet. We've got more than a few of his daughters in the herd, and they're working well too. That bull has paid for himself many times over.

Bonus ... not one horned calf in the bunch.

[PureCountry]

cswilson, did you happen to see that write-up in Canadian Cattleman - I believe last fall? It was about new methods of flushing and embryo transplant, making it possible for producers to get 100 eggs or more from one cow - EVERY YEAR. The scientists working on it were quite confident that the cost of this would come down in the next year or two, to the point where most commercial breeders could afford it.

That would be very interesting to try. Like you say, take your best commercial cows, flush them to your pick of bulls, and generate 100 or more full/half sisters/brothers in one breeding season.

And no I'm not forgetting the need for all those recipients. But if the cost of the procedure was reasonable, it might be worth trying.

[cswilson]

The Hereford bull I plan on using is a long dead but still a trait leader for 7 traits-calving ease,milk and all the carcass ones-I've probably seen 50 or 60 direct daughters of his in production and they are my kind of cows moderate-easy fleshed-very fertile. A person could stick the embryos in his yearling heifers as I'm sure they'd calve to him. I'm lucky to have a vet buddy who is very good at E.T. work. You sure would have a marketable product if you could offer full sisters out of highly proven parents.

[grassfarmer]

Here's a question for some of you guys with experience of Hereford genetics. In the UK a number of people are using the Leachman stabiliser semen to try to fix a type largely on angus x holstein or hereford x holstein cows that form much of the UK beef herd. Some of them have commented to me recently how they are surprised that they are not throwing white faced calves. I think even off white faced cows in some cases. Isn't that surprising given the strength of the white face gene? The stabiliser is one quarter hereford, quarter angus, quarter gelbvieh and quarter simmental which also has a fairly strong white face gene (well real simmentals have anyway)