The missing link?

[grassfarmer]

I was looking at Canfax tonight and read a most remarkable figure - a recent survey of producers in Alberta showed that only 33.7% of their cows were over 7 years old. After doing some calculations I'm wondering if I've discovered the missing link in beef cow profitability.
Now because I'm new here I bought a bunch of older dispersal cows in 01,02 and 03 and have only put in 4 years of
replacement heifers. Taking out this years small number of first calvers
my previous three years heifer inputs, of similar numbers each year, have lost <7% of their numbers to attrition. Of that half were culled on performance and half for being open. So by an average age of 4 years I've dropped <7% against an industry standard of 67% attrition by age 7. I pretty much know that if we get them through their first and second calving
years with no problems they should have an easier time with calves 3-10.
How can we as an industy possibly burn out so many young cows? is it poor management, lack of feed/forage or poor genetics? With figures like these as industry standards something is amiss - how can we prevent this huge wastage of cattle and money?

[silverback]

You have way too much time on your hands.

Buy some more land or cows so you will have something to take your mind off such things.

[cswilson]

Really the only added cost on an 18 month old heifer is breeding other than just a plain old grass heifer. Alot of guys breed a few extra then cull very hard.If you calve as a short two you can still get the culls finished and gone under the 30 month window.

[grassfarmer]

Silverback, I'm not looking to "take my mind off such things" I've learned that the biggest difference I can make to my business is by working "on" the business rather than "in" the business. Sure, I could buy lots more land and lots more cows, work like a dog and bitch about being in a $50/ calf margin industry. I happen to think there is a smarter way and am enjoying learning and practising it. To me that means analysing and rethinking every part of beef production systems constantly while my cows are out doing the work. Most producers seem to be happier sitting on tractors making hay for the 3 months of the year that they aren't feeding the cows. That's their choice and if my posts here offend you maybe i'll stop posting - maybe we all should? then we can go back to long days of brainless $7/hour work and moaning about the unprofitability of our industry?

cswilson, I take your point about breeding to calf at a younger age which is relevant with the current OTM rule but for 67% of cows to be gone by 7 years old suggests more than rigorous culling to me. I know many of the producers in my area cull a lot less than I do for poor performance.
Looking at the animals going through the cull rings it seems clear to me that majority of young cows are culled for being open, having udder problems or feet problems. I think we should be able to pick (and/or manage better)replacement heifers that have a higher degree of success and lasting ability in our herds given all the supposed available science of maternal EPDs etc.

[grassfarmer]

I have to agree with grassfarmer that we as producers must give the business side of our industry a lot more credence than in the past. Culling cows, maintaining a herd of a specific age is all based on business decisions, but I will say, that again, it boils down to what works best for individual operations.
Culling cows that are open,have foot or udder or DISPOSITION problems makes a lot of sense but culling because they have reached a magic age with no regard to how they are producing is not the way I manage my herd.

[grassfarmer]

i have to agree on many good points this was the best aporturnity.for cow- calf people to get anice young herd of uniform and colour calf crop.
i am on the market a lot and see alot of single calfs all kinds of colour
and size come from one owner.i like
some history on the clfs in the ring, or on like team auction, and than horns or
bull-calves we will have to pay way less or not wanted at all, so it is up to you cowman!!!!!!!!.

[cswilson]

Culling rate is often a function of how much money you want to spend-alot of money can be spent trying to raise the pregnancy rate 5 points. You have a big enough checkbook you can have 95 percent of your cows left at 7.If you put some enviromental pressure on cows your going to cull a few.

[grassfarmer]

I think I'm being misunderstood here (must be the damned accent again!)

Emrald1 - As with everything, of course it is a personal decision how people want to cull or manage their herds BUT it still strikes me that the figures quoted as industry standards are hard to comprehend. 67% of cows don't make it to 7 years old, 7 is by no means an old cow and presumably no-one "culling at a magic age" is doing it before age 7 in beef cows.

Jerryk - I'm with you on the problem of single calves and "heinz57" cow herds. But where was the big opportunity for ranchers to cull their herds? During the last two years of really low prices? I think most ranchers have substantially reduced their culling rates through this time period due to the dire cull cow prices.

cswilson, I agree with your point on culling rates and environmental pressure. I am not suggesting that we should have a herd of old cows for the sake of having old cows - and certainly we shouldn't maintain a herd of older cows by using an excessive amount of extra feed to keep them. I have a low input herd that are fed a lot cheaper than most of the cows in my area, they work a lot harder too and I have no problem maintaining cows to a reasonable age. As an extreme case my three old Luing cows at 18, 18 and 19 year olds have all bred back in the first cycle again this year yet they were on the same straw and hay winter ration as the rest of the herd. We certainly have over 50% of our herd that are 7 years plus and in fact many of those will be 10 years plus - and they are just regular looking cows of normal breeds baldies, sim x angus etc.

The point I'm trying to make is I'm not querying individuals culling decisions - the figures quoted indicate to me that there is an industry wide problem with cows not lasting a reasonable time. I don't believe figures as high as these are levels producers would want to cull at rather it is being forced on them by problems (fertility, feet, udders etc).

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer, I am sure you will agree that some breeds are noted for longevity, Luing is one of them. I have limo cows that are 12 years old and are still good sound cows, but am going to cull heavily this fall and keep a young herd, mainly because I am sizing down and it makes sense to keep the younger cows, many of whom are good producers and others that are two or three year olds are daughters of the good old reliable cows.

I think that if any producer puts all his or her time and energy into trying to develop the perfect herd by emphasizing on age they will be disappointed in the long run.

I am willing to bet that the stats you are referring to are close to being accurate, particularly if all yearling heifers are placed in the category of potential breeding animals. Remember that cows were bringing a good dollar for slaughter for a while so perhaps there was a good cull of older cows pre BSE. Although to hear producers talk, one would think that there was an abundance of old girls still in herds across the country.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald1, "I think that if any producer puts all his or her time and energy into trying to develop the perfect herd by emphasizing on age they will be disappointed in the long run."
Again i'm not putting all my energy into developing an old herd, I'm not using it as a single trait selection tool - an old herd is NOT the objective, rather finishing up with a herd of older cows is proof that you have got the other things right - the udders, the feet, the fertility, the fleshing ability, the calving ease. If any of these things had failed she would have been culled.
I tell people when they see my very old purebreds that we don't have EPDs on them - they don't need them because they are walking maternal EPDs. Yet the industry in general is happy to buy semen from bulls out of 2 year old heifers on the strength of their maternal EPDs. Don't make sense to me.

[cowman]

In the big picture most cows start to produce less as they get some age on them? Just about any cow should be able to produce a decent calf up to at least 12 years old? I doubt there is a lot of economic sense in keeping a cow until she is fit only to feed to the coyotes?
If you have to cull for udders or feet or disposition, you need to go back to see what you were doing wrong in your breeding program. A good long term cowherd shouldn't have these problems, unless you are selecting for bad traits?
Perhaps a lot of young first/second calvers are culled because they didn't fit into some tight breeding program that some "expert" told you was the way to go. I agree with cwilson that when you put some pressure on them you are going to get some opens? If you aren't pushing the window you aren't maxxing your profit opportunity? I never get bent out of shape if a young cow comes in a bit late...usually she catches up within a year or two!
The whole concept of a nice uniform calf crop is nice to see but not neccessarily the most profitable? If you sell the whole works right off the cow you are going to take a beating on that little calf, but if you feed him out you'll do okay. A decent presort sale takes a lot of this screwing you out of the market?
Jerryk: There is really no excuse for having calves not dehorned or cut and without a doubt the buyers will make you pay dearly. Probably a lot more than what is fair, but then no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to sell bulls or calves with horns?

[cowman]

The purebred industry puts a lot of stock in EPD's, and I use it as a tool to select herdsires but I usually try and see the mother of any prospective herdbuil that I am interested in purchasing.If his mama happens to be a 12 year old cow with good feet, udder in good shape and is still breeding back for an early calf it tells me that is daughters have a good chance of inheriting those traits. Now, I am not necessarily breeding for longevity,but good feet and udders and fertility are very important criteria .
I don't think that a cow should be kept to the point that she needs any extra care because of her age.
That doesn't make economical sense.

[farmers_son]

Speaking of longevity, our oldest cow calved last month for the sixteenth straight time. Yes she is 18 years old, born in 1987, and looks to be about 10. She has never had assistance to calve, has never missed getting in calf, has never had a calf with scours, has always weaned a calf. Her calves are average to above average. Feet and udder are still good and she is in good condition. There can be no doubt that this cow has been profitable for us. The average age of our cow herd is five years old.

[smcgrath76]

I think that in a lot of herds culling rates are extremely high. We run a commercial herd and the longer we can keep a cow in production the more money she makes us. If we have a cow for 10 calves instead of 2 we can depreciate her at a much slower rate (or get a return from a fully depreciated asset).
I do know that our younger females are better than our older ones though. Our older females are more predictable (we know they have proven themselves) but as we keep using better bulls, more suited to our goals across our predictable cows, in general their offspring are better than they are.
I am interested in what you mean by maternal EPD. Most breeds only provide milk EPD, and selecting for high milk in a limiting environment can negatively impact fertility, and fleshing (easy-keeping) ability. Did you ever see a really fat Holstein?
We look at:
1) the breeder's/semen supplier's program (they have to have one)
2) EPD (from North America, Australia, etc.) for calving ease, growth, carcass, maternal (milk, mature size, heifer pregnancy rate, longevity, etc.)
3) the animal, his dam, his sire, his offspring.

I am actually not that surprised by the high number. I wonder if the age has increased over the last couple of years?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman "Just about any cow should be able to produce a decent calf up to at least 12 years old?" - Agreed!
"...pressure on them you are going to get some opens? If you aren't pushing the window you aren't maxxing your profit opportunity" Agreed, but if you then say you allow cows to be late calvers, effectively keeping opens in the herd that isn't the rigorous culling that cswilson speaks of or that the industry must be doing by implication to have such high cull rates.

Emrald1, "I don't think that a cow should be kept to the point that she needs any extra care because of her age." Agreed, although we have mostly done a little of it these past two years due to low cull cow prices.

Farmers_son, that's the kind of cow i'm talking about - a good old cow. Perhaps the industry needs to use more sons of such cows?