The missing link?

[cswilson]

When I get a sale catalogue -that's first thing I look for is bulls out of older mothers-especially if he was able to perform any where near the herd average.We don't use a cow for flushing until she is at least 12 years old-in fact I'm seriously considering flushing two of our better Angus cross commercial cows to a Hereford bull that I was lucky enough to get some semen on. A herd of black baldie full sisters would be a pretty sweet commercial herd.

[kato]

We bought a bull from a fellow who had a number of twenty year old plus Limo cows in his herd. That bull is now 9 years old and still working. He kept right up with the younger guys last spring in the breeding pasture, but we've kept him back with a couple of late cows to give him a rest. Other than having a problem with some sand cracks a couple of years ago, he has also had trouble free feet. We've got more than a few of his daughters in the herd, and they're working well too. That bull has paid for himself many times over.

Bonus ... not one horned calf in the bunch.

[PureCountry]

cswilson, did you happen to see that write-up in Canadian Cattleman - I believe last fall? It was about new methods of flushing and embryo transplant, making it possible for producers to get 100 eggs or more from one cow - EVERY YEAR. The scientists working on it were quite confident that the cost of this would come down in the next year or two, to the point where most commercial breeders could afford it.

That would be very interesting to try. Like you say, take your best commercial cows, flush them to your pick of bulls, and generate 100 or more full/half sisters/brothers in one breeding season.

And no I'm not forgetting the need for all those recipients. But if the cost of the procedure was reasonable, it might be worth trying.

[cswilson]

The Hereford bull I plan on using is a long dead but still a trait leader for 7 traits-calving ease,milk and all the carcass ones-I've probably seen 50 or 60 direct daughters of his in production and they are my kind of cows moderate-easy fleshed-very fertile. A person could stick the embryos in his yearling heifers as I'm sure they'd calve to him. I'm lucky to have a vet buddy who is very good at E.T. work. You sure would have a marketable product if you could offer full sisters out of highly proven parents.

[grassfarmer]

Here's a question for some of you guys with experience of Hereford genetics. In the UK a number of people are using the Leachman stabiliser semen to try to fix a type largely on angus x holstein or hereford x holstein cows that form much of the UK beef herd. Some of them have commented to me recently how they are surprised that they are not throwing white faced calves. I think even off white faced cows in some cases. Isn't that surprising given the strength of the white face gene? The stabiliser is one quarter hereford, quarter angus, quarter gelbvieh and quarter simmental which also has a fairly strong white face gene (well real simmentals have anyway)

[PureCountry]

That 'white-faced' gene is a fascinating thing. Some of my cows that are 1/4 shorthorn or 1/4 hereford have been crossed with Black Angus, Red Gelbvieh, and now Black Galloway, and have had calves come out with more white on their face and neck than the cow! Explain that. Some cows have had solid black or red calves one year, then turn around the next year -BRED TO THE SAME BULL - and have a calf with a full bald face!?!

The only pattern I've noticed, is that the daughters who come out with more white than the dams, when bred black, their calves are always black. The odd spotted belly, white sock, star or snip, but no brockles or baldies. It's like that bald face has to have one last kick at the can.

[redhen]

Hi from Alberta, Grassfarmer. Do you feel there might be some merit in breeding back to heritage breeds? The UK's Rare Breeds Survival Trust might be able to give you info, or recommend a particular breed and line. We don't have heritage cattle yet, but we sure are enjoying our Jacob and Clun Forest sheep. Easy keepers, easy birthing, longevity, disease resistance without antibiotics. I think Kerry cattle even have resistance to BSE?

[cswilson]

My kids are animal nuts-they bought some Buff Orpington hens years ago-well those old hens pawed out in the cattle pens all winter and lived to be 6 or 7 years old. You'd find their egg cahes every once in awhile-definately alot hardier than the factory breeds.

[cswilson]

I have a limo herd but do have a couple of commercial cows. One a black broc face and the other a BWF. The broc bred to a black limo either has a black broc calf or a solid black calf. The BWF has had one black broc heifer and the rest have been light red with a broc face !

[grassfarmer]

redhen, I like to think I'm already into heritage breeds - the cattle we have were developed from 1940s Scottish Highlands and Shorthorns but have been refined into something that meets modern specifications as well. We feel our breed hasn't lost any of the traits you mention, certainly less than a lot of mainstream breeds particularily the ones that practice their selection in the show ring.

That's an interesting claim on Kerrys - I know the Dexter breed has never had a BSE case, nor has my breed for that matter. A few months ago I would have argued that had more to do with the distance they were kept away from dairy farms and feeding pail bunter calves but it seems science is now pointing to an element of genetic susceptability being implicated in which cattle develop BSE. Time will tell.

[cowman]

Somehow I doubt certain types of cattle are immune to BSE? Maybe it has more to do with the fact that some of these rare breeds are just that...rare?
It seems to me most of the BSE cows in North America were beef cows? One angus, one Salers, one Charlais, one Brahma? The Washington cow was a holstein and not sure about the other one?
There might be something to an "immunity" theory, as it seems like some people are almost completely immune to things like cancer? I think it drives the "experts" crazy when some old rake who lived a totally unhealthy lifestyle, lives to be 98 years old while all the little health freaks drop dead from cancer by the time they are fifty! Some of those old boys couldn't be killed with a two by four!

[redhen]

Good thoughts, everyone! Am I correct in understanding (I'm remembering David Suzuki's "Apocalypse Cow" 2-part focus on BSE) that if cattle, swine and poultry offal had never been used to produce protein for commercial cattle feed, we would not have a problem with BSE, or with Scrapie in sheep? If that is true, then the heritage breeds do have an advantage. Most of them have never been involved in the animal-sourced-protein food chain. They are pastured, and fed hay or grain. In most cases, their genetics have also never been compromised with out-crossing to other breeds who have already been exposed to animal-sourced protein.

[grassfarmer]

I think that's a rather over simplification on the causes of BSE. If "contaminated feed" is proven to be the main way of transmitting BSE there still had to be an original case of BSE occuring for BSE infected MBM to enter the foodchain in the firstplace. I have yet to hear a sensible counter argument to that.
To blame scrapie in a cross species contamination theory hasn't proven possible to date either. Scrapie incidentally is a very old disease probably been present in European sheep since the 1700s so it wasn't caused by sloppy rendering practises either.
I firmly believe that Mark Purdy is on the right track - complicated environmental factors cause initial sporadic BSE cases such as we have probably had in North America. This was not however the cause of the huge UK outbreak - there is no doubt in my mind this was caused by MBM feed transmission. The important point most people miss is there seems to be an initial 24-48 hour window in a calves life when BSE can spread through the stomach wall and reach the brain. This explains why it was largely a dairy disease in the UK - it is pailbunter calves that get it from the powder milk replacer and possibly protein pellets consumed at that same age. As such that is why most heritage breeds have been less affected with BSE cases. There is however research ongoing that is looking at genetic susceptability because that certainly plays a part in CJD and Altzeimers in humans.

[redhen]

A key point! I believe the answer lies in the CONCENTRATION of animal-sourced protein in feed over the past few decades. If processors had never tried to make an extra buck by selling brains and spinals cords to feed producers (instead of paying to have it properly incinerated), the concentrations of BSE in commercial feed would never have reached a level where the disease impacted entire herds, regions or countries. The occasional cow may have developed symptoms of BSE, but would not have been put into the human OR animal food chain.

[redhen]

To clarify, the BSE concentration levels were compounded each time an infected animal who had itself consumed animal-sourced protein was then processed and recycled into the commercial feed chain as more animal-sourced protein.

In the process, what might have taken thousands of years to develop naturally (ie, the occasional isolated incidence of BSE) was achieved by feed producers in a matter of years. Now, the only herds who are not at risk for wide-spread development of BSE are those who have never been exposed to animal-sourced protein of any kind, going back to the point when humankind in its wisdom first thought herbivores should be fed back to herbivores.