The missing link?

[redhen]

cowman, many of those old boys that live to be 98 have gone through tough times and likely a shortage of groceries on the table many times during their lifetime, plus done more work than half a dozen men do today, and it hasn't seemed to hurt them much, although I do think that logevity is hereditary for the most part. My kids say that it seems in our family the ornery ones that are tough to live around live longest !!!

[kpb]

Well redhen I'm not convinced our cattle herd is at risk for "wide-spread development of BSE". In fact I'd say it's pretty darn unlikely that you're going to see a wide-spread epidemic of BSE in Canada.

And the reason that animal by-products were fed as protein to feeders is that they were cheaper to feed. To say this is a case of feed processors, a decade or so ago, being somehow immoral or unethical, when this was a perfectly acceptable practice at the time, is a little too much like 20-20 hindsight in my books. It is oh so easy to look back in time at anybody and ask them how come they did this or that.

I get the feeling from reading your posts that you are an animal rights person or something similar. Do you actually own any cattle or is this forum just slumming for you?

kpb

[redhen]

Yes, I own livestock, and yes, I harvest and eat them.

No, I'm not slumming.

No, I'm not an animal rights activist, but I am a member of Alberta Farm Animal Care. Aren't you?

Yes, I'm pretty disgusted with the greed-based concept of feeding the offal of pigs, chickens and cows to cattle, and particularly to the calves of dairy cows -- which is how BSE got off to a rolling start in England.

Yes, I believe the practice of feeding animal-sourced protein to herbivores has exponentially increased levels of BSE-causing prions in cattle.

I would love someone to prove me wrong.

I will never feed a commercial ration with undisclosed sources of protein to my horses, sheep, ducks, geese or poultry when there are so many grain and legume alternatives.

Now, can we get back to Grassfarmer's discussion about those cows? That was the context in which I mentioned heritage cattle breeds like the Kerry, who show an apparent resistance to the development of BSE/prions as a side benefit, as a means of herd improvement to reduce the percentage of lost production years in cows. There is currently a study of scrapie-resistance (scrapie being the sheep equivalent to BSE) in heritage sheep breeds, so I think the merits of breeding back to these ancient breeds bears consideration.

[kpb]

Well redhen I notice that there are no cows included in the menagerie that you feed at your place. I've had thousands of calves and cows at my place over the years so your suggestion that I need to belong to some farm animal care group is strange to say the least. It seems to me that I struck you pretty close to home in the last post.

I get a little riled up when someone who owns no cows at all comes on here and says that unless we feed what you think is right to these animals then we're bound to have an epidemic of BSE in our herd. What exactly do you know about feeding calves, maintaining a good cow herd over the years, making a living in this business? Sounds to me like you're like a whole of people who dabble a little in something, then think they have the right to tell the people who make a living in that business just what they're doing right or wrong.

The people who have been feeding calves and cows in this country for a long time are honest, decent, hard-working people who have stuck through hard economic times and against the wacko attacks by dabblers and special interest group adherents like yourself for a long time. To say now we should have done this or that in the mid-1990's so that we wouldn't have BSE now is patently ridiculous. The people who fed protein supplement at that time, all approved and legal, cannot be blamed any more than the food processors can.

Maybe you should learn a little about the cattle industry before you have such strong opinions about what a bunch of foolhardy people the participants in it are.

kpb

[cowman]

Well Elizabeth it is good to see you are back in circulation and ready to whip some of these old boys back into a social conscience!LOL
I am unfamiliar with this Alberta Farm Care thing? What is that?

[cowman]

AFAC is a group initiated by the government that will bring in peers to work with a producer to help then understand the appropriate way to care for their animals. They are called in by various means, when animals are in crisis etc. Our municipality called them when a farmer was starving his cattle, there were deads all over the yard and some too weak to walk to the feed. AFAC did drive by and take a look but didn't do anything else, with the involvement of the local Vet the SPCA finally came out and laid charges. The guy was found guilty and fined, it made front page news and he did clean up his act somewhat after that. AFAC did not follow up with us, which was disappointing.

[grassfarmer]

redhen,
I don't know where the study of scrapie resistant sheep you mention is happening but in the UK they are years ahead in this game. Scrapie monitoring and identification has been on the go for several years now and scrapie resistant lines have been found in large numbers in every mainstream breed. This is now used as a basis for selling rams with the scrapie susceptable ones being unwanted and largely unsaleable. Personally I think scrapie in sheep is a big red herring in the BSE debate.

[redhen]

AFAC info can be found at afac.ab.ca

Until January of this year, AFAC was the only livestock care group that could be reached 24/7, long after the SPCA closed on a Friday night. They work in conjunction with the RCMP and the SPCA, as well as industry leaders, to ensure livestock receive appropriate levels of care from birth to processing. They are an industry-driven organization, so I'm rather surprised that many of the people in the cattle "industry" don't know what they're all about.

[redhen]

Hey, Cowman! How are those chickens? Good to see you're still on the farm! Yep, I'm still out here trying to get people to see how farming can pay, and trying to get the young folks involved as both conservationists and farmers. Not much point in tooting a heritage livestock horn if there won't be any land left to farm on, and no one to prod those cows. heh heh

[cowman]

Well the chickens didn't do so well. I got sick and my son decided free range was the way to go. Unfortunately the local coyotes decided this was a fine opportunity to have a banquet and they cleaned the whole works out!
I believe it is always good to have some balance in this life and we need a few "conservationists" and other "outside the box" types to counteract all us old greedy rednecks! I have always believed if a person is going to own animals they have a duty to take care of them(chickens not withstanding!). Food, shelter, bedding and as little pain as possible! In animal production there is always going to be some pain but I do believe some practices should be banned?

[cowman]

Unfortunately people can buy and raise animals without any knowledge of what their basic needs are. Had a discussion with my grandson the other day, he is jsut moving onto an acreage and wanted to buy a miniature donkey.
He has no waterer, no shelter, etc., and not a tree on the place.
I sat him down and explained that an animal needs shelter, access to clean water at all times and a few trees for shade. Told him how much all this would cost, plus buying some decent hay each year and having the farrier out at least every four or five months plus deworming etc.

He still wants a critter or two but is going to phase in all the necessities before he starts looking for animals.
I did mention to him that I would be more than anxious to kick him square in the butt if he ever dared to buy any animal larger than a dog without having a decent place to keep it and water available !!!! Also told him that I would be delighted to buy him a mini donkey once he is ready for one.

I see horses all over the country that are just being allowed to exist, feet need trimming, not enough groceries in the winter, etc., makes me want to stop and shake the living daylights out of the owners !!!

I really think its time people were forced to be responsible, for their animals as well as their actions vs having government funded groups acting as watch dogs to make sure they treat animals in their care properly. It should not be up to the neighbour to tattle to somebody when animals are in distress !!!

I look after the critters around here a lot better than I look after myself, and will continue to do so as long as I own any .

[redhen]

Sorry to hear you were ill, Cowman. Hope you are back in the saddle.

Yes, free-ranging poultry is a good thing, but it works better with some fencing! Coyotes can kill a flock in ten minutes, most of them scared to death. One of the cheapest solutions we've found is stucco wire, which is sturdier than poultry netting and reasonably priced - about $40 for 112 feet, 4 feet high. We also let the grass grow high on both sides, so the birds can't be seen by 4-footed predators.

We've had only one coyote in our bird yard over the years, but stray dogs (who have no respect for the territorial markings of our own dog) have killed more of our birds than any wildlife. Don't get me started on that!