Bred heifers

[FRENCHMAN]

15444 which area of Ont are you in ?

[sjc]

Cowman:
$1600 is reasonable for a herdsire??? My family has been in the purebred business for over 30 years, offering our customers bulls that will work and offer them something that will continue to make them more profitable. I cannot raise a bull calf, semen test him, guarntee him, carefully select a sire and maintain a cowherd capable of producing quality for the price of a fat steer. That is the problem with some commercial men- they go to the stockyards and buy a cull - something that has four legs and a set of nuts and then cry that there calf crop is not what they expected. Every bull of mine is sold off the farm - not at a bull sale. I want the customer to look at his mother, sisters the herdbull. If I cannot get $2500 for them then they are cut. There are plenty of breeders where you can get a bull for less - but they are not purebred breeders. They do not have the investment and offer the quality that I do. You have to get away from comparing to a fat steer price and look at the price of a herdsire divided amongst the number of progeny he is going ot sire for you over the four years you are going to keep him for. If the bull you buy from me can make you an extra $50 per calf in the fall, is that not worth something?

[grassfarmer]

sjc, sure it's worth something but the marketplace in Western Canada is vastly over supplied with purebred bulls, every man and his dog wants to sell purebred bulls. $1600 is way more than a fat steer has been worth for a considerable time. But we all need a price to be our cut off point - if yours is $2500 fine. Good bulls can still be bought for less than that in some breeds. Equally much rubbish that should have been cut makes $3000 every year.

[cswilson]

Nothing pisses me off more than watching the 'ring worms' and auctioneer run cattle every sorry SOB gets propped up to a couple grand or more. If I catch them at it I just hang them with the bull-if I think the bull is worth 3 or 4 thousand I can bid there myself. To me a good commercial mans sale bottoms at 2,000 and tops out at 5,000-the top bulls are in reach but the breeder isn't getting hooked either. Ringmen are pretty much a dinosaur in my opinion-any good feeder calf auctioneer can sell bulls as good as the purebred boys without a ringman's help_I've been to a few sales where thats the case and they are a pleasure to attend.

[sjc]

Grassfarmer:

You are right, there are too many bulls in the country. I guess I just did not like to be painted with the same brush as some people out there selling bulls. I hate that. We have a loyal base of customers that keep coming back each year so I know we are doing something right. Our focus right now is the Leptin gene. We currently own and have rights to five Leptin tested TT bulls. We are going to feed out several of our customers calves out of bulls off these sires and collect some more data again this year. It is pretty interesting stuff.

CS: I have been run in many sales. That is why we choose not to run our bulls through a ring. Some customers want the opportunity each year, many of them not realizing that in the end it costs them more money. But it is exciting and some people like that I guess. I probably sell for less on the yard then in a sale, but the expenses are less and if the guy comes to the yard, I can make sure he/she is getting a bull that will work not a bull that was the last one left, or went for less money or whatever.

[cowman]

The fact is it is always about supply and demand? And right now the supply is out there and I would suggest $1600 is about all they are worth...if that? In case you didn't realize it your customer has been getting zero profit the last couple of years?
I'm not ripping the purebred business...it bought and paid for just about everything I own!
But the fact is slowly the cattle business is a changing and crossbreeding is something that is a fact of life in the commercial business?
Today we are seeing more and more composite breeds as well as crossbred bulls...somebody is buying them and I doubt they are the low men on the totem poll?
Why would someone go out and pay big bucks for an unproven bull when they can get a proven bull out of a straw for $25 bucks? The answer is simple: They either don't have the time, or facilities, or maybe they are just to darned lazy to be bothered...easier to just go down the road and pay the neighbor for a pretty, probably over priced, calf?
I do realize the expense involved in raising a purebred bull in both time and expense and without a doubt I sure wouldn't do it for $1600! But no body ever promised anyone a rose garden and if the commercial customer would rather not pay you $2500 then too bad? You can always haul him down to XL and get $600?

[cswilson]

I order buy quite a few bulls every year so get to see lots of antics going on for sure. It amazes me the money people will pay for crossbred bulls-like cowman says you can do some a'i'ing -raise one off your best cows-and save alot of money.

[cowman]

I have often wondered why all the "gurus" and experts have always been so gung ho on the F1 female but not the F1 male?
They tell us the F1 female is more fertile, more longevity, more productive in growth, milk, health etc.? Why not the crossbred bull?
I wonder why you never see a purebred boar in the hog business? They are all pretty well composites?
Getting past the idea that you want to sell a purebred bull at a premium price, doesn't it really make economic sense to use a crossbred bull? I really can't see how people can think it is just great to use an F1 cow but not ever consider using an F1 bull?
These crossbred bull sales have been going on for quite awhile now...surely if they don't work people wouldn't be going back for more...in fact they seem to be getting stronger with more repeat customers!
I do know one guy who has been using Soderglen crossbred bulls and he thinks they really are good...very predictable birth weights and growth!
The fact is in any cow herd there are always a few superior females(however you want to define that)! A shot of semen from supposedly a very superior bull and you have a quality product based on what you want. Feed him how you want, not what you need to get big bucks! If he doesn't turn out what have you lost...he has a better chance of being what you want because he is a product where you really do know the cow and how he was raised?
If you don't like him you lose very little by culling him? Doesn't cost much for a replacement either?
We all should consider our costs and pursue profits? Breeding costs are not cheap and this is one way you can reduce your costs? Do you really need to give away $35/cow every year or is there a cheaper way to do it...without reducing productivity?

[cowman]

I have always felt that you can add the genetics and desireable traits of a particular breed to your herd by using a good purebred bull of that breed. The $10,000 bulls are a joke, usually some deal cooked up behind the sales ring before a bull sale. Most reliable breeders have excellent bulls at home and are available for a lot less money.

People jumped on the bandwagon of crossbred bulls when the Red Angus/Simi cross started to gain popularity. I have never been a fan of using crossbred bulls, and for the most part the cattlemen that seem to survive the industry's various crisis' are ones that aren't afraid to purchase good purebred bulls from reliable breeders. The bull s half the herd and there are many good ones around that are not extremely high priced.

[cswilson]

I do a big A'I project every year (500-1,000) at one place. They run crossbred bulls almost exclusively-all I can say is the heifers I'm a'i'ing look darn good to me. Alot of guys who have trouble with crossbred bulls have a pretty mismatched cowherd to start with. We run a few ourselves but they are all at least half Angus lol.

[sjc]

The F1 buls are not as recognized because they lack consistency in their calf crops. A crossbred bull will work fine if your cow herd is uniform. He will add vigour. But once is all you will get away with. The calves after that generation will start to revert to the breeds. I have a couple of friends that used Max bulls and they said what happens is 1/4 of the calves will be Angus, 1/4 will be Simmental and 1/2 will be somewhere in between. You get paid for uniformity, not variability. They figure they took a hit of an average of $50 per calf for using a Max bull. It is the same reason yu do not grow hybrid canola more then the hybrid generation. It reverts back to its parents.

Anyway, what I said before I will stand behind. If you cannot spend $2500 for a bull, then I have to question what you are in the business for. I am not saying to spend for the sake of spending, but rather to spend for a bull that is going to improve your genetics and your calf crop. A purebred breeder who sells bulls for $1600 is no purebred breeder. He is a guy selling a a cow freshener. There is too many costs that go into a raising a bull to sell for $300 over the price of a steer. The last I looked Soderglen averaged way more then $1600 on their bulls in the spring.

[cswilson]

I bet you can feed a set of steers of F1 bulls used correctly and they'll be just as consistant on the rail as most purebreds-it's worked here.

[grassfarmer]

sjc, I agree with your analysis of the F1 bulls. I had two crops of calves off different MAX bulls and I was very dissapointed. They looked great as calves (should have sold them all then)but the retained heifers were poor as they grew out. They are all over the place in size, type and quality and have had the highest culling rate I've ever experienced.
The red angus cows they were out of have bred pretty uniform daughters to a straightbred Simmental and now to a Luing bull.
I disagree with your comment "A purebred breeder who sells bulls for $1600 is no purebred breeder." - there are breeders of really good bulls that are not marketers and conversely there are good marketers who are selling steer prospects as bulls at quite high prices. I agree producers should be prepared to invest in good genetics but the price paid by no means determines if you are getting a good bull or a poor-should-have-been steer.
I think this is particularily true of bulls sold for "maternal" purposes - ie breeding replacement females.

[cowman]

Hmmm I wonder how come the M4 Beefbooster herd up the road are so uniform...like peas in a pod...guess nobody told them they were supposed to revert to the various breeds?
I guess the work of Dr.Berg of the U of A, at Kinsella, was just the ravings of a mad man? He ran extensive cross breeding programs that proved(in his mind) the value of extreme crossbreeding.
And I guess the hog business is really wrong in using designer genetics to obtain a very uniform product?
I guess all these idiots who continue to buy crossbred bulls are poor businessmen who don't have a clue about raising cattle? Probably won't be around much longer?

[15444]

Frenchman: Rainy River District, southwestern corner of Northwestern Ontario....jammed between the Minnesota/Manitoba borders.