Bred heifers

[cswilson]

I do a big A'I project every year (500-1,000) at one place. They run crossbred bulls almost exclusively-all I can say is the heifers I'm a'i'ing look darn good to me. Alot of guys who have trouble with crossbred bulls have a pretty mismatched cowherd to start with. We run a few ourselves but they are all at least half Angus lol.

[sjc]

The F1 buls are not as recognized because they lack consistency in their calf crops. A crossbred bull will work fine if your cow herd is uniform. He will add vigour. But once is all you will get away with. The calves after that generation will start to revert to the breeds. I have a couple of friends that used Max bulls and they said what happens is 1/4 of the calves will be Angus, 1/4 will be Simmental and 1/2 will be somewhere in between. You get paid for uniformity, not variability. They figure they took a hit of an average of $50 per calf for using a Max bull. It is the same reason yu do not grow hybrid canola more then the hybrid generation. It reverts back to its parents.

Anyway, what I said before I will stand behind. If you cannot spend $2500 for a bull, then I have to question what you are in the business for. I am not saying to spend for the sake of spending, but rather to spend for a bull that is going to improve your genetics and your calf crop. A purebred breeder who sells bulls for $1600 is no purebred breeder. He is a guy selling a a cow freshener. There is too many costs that go into a raising a bull to sell for $300 over the price of a steer. The last I looked Soderglen averaged way more then $1600 on their bulls in the spring.

[cswilson]

I bet you can feed a set of steers of F1 bulls used correctly and they'll be just as consistant on the rail as most purebreds-it's worked here.

[grassfarmer]

sjc, I agree with your analysis of the F1 bulls. I had two crops of calves off different MAX bulls and I was very dissapointed. They looked great as calves (should have sold them all then)but the retained heifers were poor as they grew out. They are all over the place in size, type and quality and have had the highest culling rate I've ever experienced.
The red angus cows they were out of have bred pretty uniform daughters to a straightbred Simmental and now to a Luing bull.
I disagree with your comment "A purebred breeder who sells bulls for $1600 is no purebred breeder." - there are breeders of really good bulls that are not marketers and conversely there are good marketers who are selling steer prospects as bulls at quite high prices. I agree producers should be prepared to invest in good genetics but the price paid by no means determines if you are getting a good bull or a poor-should-have-been steer.
I think this is particularily true of bulls sold for "maternal" purposes - ie breeding replacement females.

[cowman]

Hmmm I wonder how come the M4 Beefbooster herd up the road are so uniform...like peas in a pod...guess nobody told them they were supposed to revert to the various breeds?
I guess the work of Dr.Berg of the U of A, at Kinsella, was just the ravings of a mad man? He ran extensive cross breeding programs that proved(in his mind) the value of extreme crossbreeding.
And I guess the hog business is really wrong in using designer genetics to obtain a very uniform product?
I guess all these idiots who continue to buy crossbred bulls are poor businessmen who don't have a clue about raising cattle? Probably won't be around much longer?

[15444]

Frenchman: Rainy River District, southwestern corner of Northwestern Ontario....jammed between the Minnesota/Manitoba borders.

[grassfarmer]

I was just sharing my experience of MAX bulls - perhaps you would like to share yours Cowman?

[FRENCHMAN]

Cowman ...the theory behind Beefbooster has always been to breed to the strain least related to the strain you are using.

[FRENCHMAN]

15444

I thought so...

[cowman]

Never used MAX bulls. Used a few hereford X Sim though. As well as red baldies and Char X hereford. The Chars were the best.
Without a doubt you get some variety but if you are using top genetics you still get a big stout calf that sells very well at the mart.
I no longer bother chasing that uniform calf crop. In my opinion there was a time when you were paid very well for having a uniform crop, but with the demise of the farmer feeder and the move to big impersonal lots that premium has largely dissappeared? Maybe it is just the area I live in?
One thing that really changed how I look at things is the excellent presort sale at my local auction? I go sit at the regular sale and I see the good pens of calves come in...they sell well. Then in comes the tail enders from the same outfit and they take a beating on them? Four days later they have the presort sale. The good pens sell for as much or more than the regular sales... and the smaller calves do also!
The buyers at these presort sales seem to be very happy to buy a liner load of uniform calves and they don't really care if there are twenty owners. In the feedlots all the cattle are mixed together anyway.
Bottom line is we are selling a commodity. The feedlots know if they get the right type of calf they can make a dollar on him and those old buyers know what they are doing. Color or how curly his coat is or how big his ears are really have nothing to do with how much money he will make!
I like the concept behind beefbooster. Not pretty little show animals but very functional cattle. I know how the old purebred game is played and it can be a whole lot of fun and make you one hell of a lot of money if you can get to the top!
But when the rubber hits the road the fact is we are producing a commodity and to do that you have to be cost effective? The cattle industry has lagged behind most agriculture in moving ahead with the times but it is moving, however there will always be "the John Wayne" types who want to play cowboy. These are the guys the purebred industry needs to focus on?

[cswilson]

I have a neighbor sell at a presort but they name his pens after his ranch because they are all his calves. When we sell yearlings I sort them at home so the mart doesn't have to slice and dice. Any cattle that might be considered off we send to a feedlot and finish ourselves.

[sjc]

The bottom line I guess is that you need to raise cattle that make you, the feedlot, and the packer money. Really we are saying the same thing, I am just saying that sometimes you get what you pay for, that is all. I guess I should not get stuck on a number. My number is $2500 - if you can get the same quality for less then I guess good for you.

For the record, I went to the UofA and had a few classes with Dr.Berg. The point we used to argue all the time about was that uniformity pays the bills. Whenever you have a difference whether it be color, a short tail, whatever you take a hit. ESI in Edmonton was absolutely terrible for that. But he did have some interesting points on the value of diversity - I just never saw any of his research paying any bills. He always tried to include a cross with a double muscled breed, that always hurt his fertility.