Bred heifers

[grassfarmer]

I was just sharing my experience of MAX bulls - perhaps you would like to share yours Cowman?

[FRENCHMAN]

Cowman ...the theory behind Beefbooster has always been to breed to the strain least related to the strain you are using.

[FRENCHMAN]

15444

I thought so...

[cowman]

Never used MAX bulls. Used a few hereford X Sim though. As well as red baldies and Char X hereford. The Chars were the best.
Without a doubt you get some variety but if you are using top genetics you still get a big stout calf that sells very well at the mart.
I no longer bother chasing that uniform calf crop. In my opinion there was a time when you were paid very well for having a uniform crop, but with the demise of the farmer feeder and the move to big impersonal lots that premium has largely dissappeared? Maybe it is just the area I live in?
One thing that really changed how I look at things is the excellent presort sale at my local auction? I go sit at the regular sale and I see the good pens of calves come in...they sell well. Then in comes the tail enders from the same outfit and they take a beating on them? Four days later they have the presort sale. The good pens sell for as much or more than the regular sales... and the smaller calves do also!
The buyers at these presort sales seem to be very happy to buy a liner load of uniform calves and they don't really care if there are twenty owners. In the feedlots all the cattle are mixed together anyway.
Bottom line is we are selling a commodity. The feedlots know if they get the right type of calf they can make a dollar on him and those old buyers know what they are doing. Color or how curly his coat is or how big his ears are really have nothing to do with how much money he will make!
I like the concept behind beefbooster. Not pretty little show animals but very functional cattle. I know how the old purebred game is played and it can be a whole lot of fun and make you one hell of a lot of money if you can get to the top!
But when the rubber hits the road the fact is we are producing a commodity and to do that you have to be cost effective? The cattle industry has lagged behind most agriculture in moving ahead with the times but it is moving, however there will always be "the John Wayne" types who want to play cowboy. These are the guys the purebred industry needs to focus on?

[cswilson]

I have a neighbor sell at a presort but they name his pens after his ranch because they are all his calves. When we sell yearlings I sort them at home so the mart doesn't have to slice and dice. Any cattle that might be considered off we send to a feedlot and finish ourselves.

[sjc]

The bottom line I guess is that you need to raise cattle that make you, the feedlot, and the packer money. Really we are saying the same thing, I am just saying that sometimes you get what you pay for, that is all. I guess I should not get stuck on a number. My number is $2500 - if you can get the same quality for less then I guess good for you.

For the record, I went to the UofA and had a few classes with Dr.Berg. The point we used to argue all the time about was that uniformity pays the bills. Whenever you have a difference whether it be color, a short tail, whatever you take a hit. ESI in Edmonton was absolutely terrible for that. But he did have some interesting points on the value of diversity - I just never saw any of his research paying any bills. He always tried to include a cross with a double muscled breed, that always hurt his fertility.

[grassfarmer]

sjc, "The bottom line I guess is that you need to raise cattle that make you, the feedlot, and the packer money."
Maybe we should all reflect on that comment. Apart from the obvious fact that we are all raising cattle to make the packer money at the moment I think cow/calf outfits should perhaps concentrate on raising calves that make them money before considering the others. That's not to say I think we should all start taking crappy calves to the auction off $800 bulls but perhaps,as an example, purebred breeders shouldn't bother chasing the current holy grail of Igenity testing. Their aim is to provide bulls to their commercial customers who they think want this information because it will make their calves more valuable. At this stage is there any prospect of packers paying feedlots enough of a premium on these cattle for the feedlot operators to pay a premium for them at auction? And like preconditioning will feedlot buyers believe that the calves are really off a high scoring bull?
With carcase traits being generally
antagonistic to fertility traits every step we breed closer to the packers dream cattle leaves us with less efficient and profitable herds unless we are in a position to capture some of that value.
These things maybe apply less in a retained ownership scenario but I believe the average cow/calf producer should concentrate on managing their herds to produce the best return to them and that will be achieved through maximising fertility, longevity and production while at the same time minimising maintanence and production costs.

[cswilson]

It is a fallacy that carcass cattle have to be slab sided and infertile-I have some cows that fertile, mellow easy doing cows that also raise Prime-yield grade 1 steers when we sell on the grid. That pays aroung a 200 buck premium depending on carcass size.I can't afford to take a chance on order buyers perception of quality-I took two cull hfrs(for tempermant) to the mart-identical-one brought .40/lb less than the other one. I think I know where the other 80 or so heifers are going off grass-ON FEED-I'll take my chances on the grid any day.

[cowman]

I guess the valuable lesson of all the diverse philosophys on raising cattle is this: There is no right way and no wrong way...only the way that works for you! People raise cattle for a number of reasons and have a number of goals in mind!
Personally I need a damned lawnmower to keep the grass mowed while my land appreciates. Hopefully it is something I can make some money at while not killing myself doing it! Not real keen on going around and around on a tractor for any length of time so grain farming doesn't work so well for me.
Bottom line is if you can get the bills paid and enjoy yourself then who really cares how the other guy does it? It is always his nickel to spend and I guess it is probably better to buy a bull that blow it in the casino!
And incidently I doubt I would charge any less($2500) for a bull either? I sure as hell wouldn't be bothered for $1600!

[grassfarmer]

cswilson, I agree there is a type of cattle that breed both carcase and true maternal traits, they tend to belong to us crazy grass farmers! Unfortunately for many in the industry "slab sided, infertile" cows is what they are breeding for by pursuing high carcase and high maternal EPD cattle.

[cswilson]

Grassfarmer -it was a very pleasant surprise when I got my first grid results back and saw whick cows are producing our top carcasses. I guess a big slab sided cow won't evr produce my top carcass because I don't own any like that. Right now were averaging close to 95% AAA-our yield grade on the average could be a bit better but afraid of giving up the matrernal and easy keeping qualities by pursueing higher yieldng genetics. Do you sell PB Luing bulls-my grandmother knew the Cadzow brothers if I remember correctly.

[sjc]

Grassfarmer:

Say what you want about the Leptin gene, but I have fed 150 customer calves out of TT bulls for each of the past three years to prove to myself that this was something that was worthwhile. The cattle were marked and fed in amongst non TT cattle. We also checked and found the CT and CC calves in the pen. I got the TT steers in and out of the feedlot on average 14 days sooner then the CC calves, and seven days sooner then the CT calves.The TT calves graded more consistently on the grid then either the CC or CT calves. The net result was I made more money with the TT calves, and the CT calves were not far behind. The CC calves can still grade but they need more time on feed and cost more money because of it.

I need to offer my customers value and something not many others are willing to offer. I guess that is why I can extract a few extra dollars for my bulls at the end of the day.

And for the record, I provided the feedlot where this info was done for the past few years, the customers who purchased TT bulls the past few years, and they have already went out a bought the calf crop from those customers. Needless to say, those customers are very happy and will be coming back for more bulls. Now I do not have to buy a bunch of my customers calves to prove that this is something of substance. I made the feedlot a believer.

I am not saying the Leptin gene is the end all be all, but it is another thing us purebred breeders need to be looking at. I am not going to cull all my CC cows. The cattle need to still be good. But good and being a TT, is a bonus. And I know from experience that it pays and I have not lost any fertility by using TT bulls.

[grassfarmer]

Hey cs you're tying to sound awfully young again, your grandmother knew the Cadzows? ;o) Ralph is still alive.
Yes I sell purebreds - check them out at www.luingcattle.com

[cswilson]

My gramma would of known Ralph's grandparents probably as she emigrated in 1917. If she was alive today Gramma would be 123. Quite an interesting story as my Dad was born in 1920 when my Gramma was 38 and my Grampa was 68. He died in '25 but my gramma lived until 1975. My dad was the first white boy born in Meadow Lake.

[grassfarmer]

That is an interesting story - different times for sure. My Great grandfather was doing things kind of backwards around then too. He retired from the colonial service in India at age 56 - got married and promptly died at 58. He was 57 when they had the first child , my great grandmother 33. She had my grandfather soon after her husband died and lived on until 1953.