Bred heifers

[grassfarmer]

sjc, "The bottom line I guess is that you need to raise cattle that make you, the feedlot, and the packer money."
Maybe we should all reflect on that comment. Apart from the obvious fact that we are all raising cattle to make the packer money at the moment I think cow/calf outfits should perhaps concentrate on raising calves that make them money before considering the others. That's not to say I think we should all start taking crappy calves to the auction off $800 bulls but perhaps,as an example, purebred breeders shouldn't bother chasing the current holy grail of Igenity testing. Their aim is to provide bulls to their commercial customers who they think want this information because it will make their calves more valuable. At this stage is there any prospect of packers paying feedlots enough of a premium on these cattle for the feedlot operators to pay a premium for them at auction? And like preconditioning will feedlot buyers believe that the calves are really off a high scoring bull?
With carcase traits being generally
antagonistic to fertility traits every step we breed closer to the packers dream cattle leaves us with less efficient and profitable herds unless we are in a position to capture some of that value.
These things maybe apply less in a retained ownership scenario but I believe the average cow/calf producer should concentrate on managing their herds to produce the best return to them and that will be achieved through maximising fertility, longevity and production while at the same time minimising maintanence and production costs.

[cswilson]

It is a fallacy that carcass cattle have to be slab sided and infertile-I have some cows that fertile, mellow easy doing cows that also raise Prime-yield grade 1 steers when we sell on the grid. That pays aroung a 200 buck premium depending on carcass size.I can't afford to take a chance on order buyers perception of quality-I took two cull hfrs(for tempermant) to the mart-identical-one brought .40/lb less than the other one. I think I know where the other 80 or so heifers are going off grass-ON FEED-I'll take my chances on the grid any day.

[cowman]

I guess the valuable lesson of all the diverse philosophys on raising cattle is this: There is no right way and no wrong way...only the way that works for you! People raise cattle for a number of reasons and have a number of goals in mind!
Personally I need a damned lawnmower to keep the grass mowed while my land appreciates. Hopefully it is something I can make some money at while not killing myself doing it! Not real keen on going around and around on a tractor for any length of time so grain farming doesn't work so well for me.
Bottom line is if you can get the bills paid and enjoy yourself then who really cares how the other guy does it? It is always his nickel to spend and I guess it is probably better to buy a bull that blow it in the casino!
And incidently I doubt I would charge any less($2500) for a bull either? I sure as hell wouldn't be bothered for $1600!

[grassfarmer]

cswilson, I agree there is a type of cattle that breed both carcase and true maternal traits, they tend to belong to us crazy grass farmers! Unfortunately for many in the industry "slab sided, infertile" cows is what they are breeding for by pursuing high carcase and high maternal EPD cattle.

[cswilson]

Grassfarmer -it was a very pleasant surprise when I got my first grid results back and saw whick cows are producing our top carcasses. I guess a big slab sided cow won't evr produce my top carcass because I don't own any like that. Right now were averaging close to 95% AAA-our yield grade on the average could be a bit better but afraid of giving up the matrernal and easy keeping qualities by pursueing higher yieldng genetics. Do you sell PB Luing bulls-my grandmother knew the Cadzow brothers if I remember correctly.

[sjc]

Grassfarmer:

Say what you want about the Leptin gene, but I have fed 150 customer calves out of TT bulls for each of the past three years to prove to myself that this was something that was worthwhile. The cattle were marked and fed in amongst non TT cattle. We also checked and found the CT and CC calves in the pen. I got the TT steers in and out of the feedlot on average 14 days sooner then the CC calves, and seven days sooner then the CT calves.The TT calves graded more consistently on the grid then either the CC or CT calves. The net result was I made more money with the TT calves, and the CT calves were not far behind. The CC calves can still grade but they need more time on feed and cost more money because of it.

I need to offer my customers value and something not many others are willing to offer. I guess that is why I can extract a few extra dollars for my bulls at the end of the day.

And for the record, I provided the feedlot where this info was done for the past few years, the customers who purchased TT bulls the past few years, and they have already went out a bought the calf crop from those customers. Needless to say, those customers are very happy and will be coming back for more bulls. Now I do not have to buy a bunch of my customers calves to prove that this is something of substance. I made the feedlot a believer.

I am not saying the Leptin gene is the end all be all, but it is another thing us purebred breeders need to be looking at. I am not going to cull all my CC cows. The cattle need to still be good. But good and being a TT, is a bonus. And I know from experience that it pays and I have not lost any fertility by using TT bulls.

[grassfarmer]

Hey cs you're tying to sound awfully young again, your grandmother knew the Cadzows? ;o) Ralph is still alive.
Yes I sell purebreds - check them out at www.luingcattle.com

[cswilson]

My gramma would of known Ralph's grandparents probably as she emigrated in 1917. If she was alive today Gramma would be 123. Quite an interesting story as my Dad was born in 1920 when my Gramma was 38 and my Grampa was 68. He died in '25 but my gramma lived until 1975. My dad was the first white boy born in Meadow Lake.

[grassfarmer]

That is an interesting story - different times for sure. My Great grandfather was doing things kind of backwards around then too. He retired from the colonial service in India at age 56 - got married and promptly died at 58. He was 57 when they had the first child , my great grandmother 33. She had my grandfather soon after her husband died and lived on until 1953.

[cowman]

sjc: Having been sort of "uninterested" in the cattle business the last few years I will admit my ignorance about the ingenity thing. I have vaguely heard a bit about it?
If you would elaborate on it a bit please? Preferably in layman terms?

[sjc]

The Leptin gene has been identified as a "obesity" gene in cattle. There are three different types catlle can possess CC, CT or TT. CC is the most commonly found in the cattle population (roughly 45%). Next is CT and TT at 29 and 26% or somewhere around there.

They have shown that the presence of the Obesity gene "T" in cattle has meant that those cattle are better able to lay down fat, reach maturity sooner, and therefore reach finished weight sooner then non "t" cattle. They marble better and therefore grade better then the alternative. Exotic breeds have more CC cattle then British breeds. Which explains a few things if you think about it.

I was a skeptic at first, and the Merial guy convinced me to test a few herdsires. By chance they happened to be TT. So, inorder for me to prove to myself this was something worthwhile, I tested some bulls that were going into commercial herds. After I knew who had a TT bull, I actually bought all of the calves from that bull and other non TT bulls and fed them out in a feedlot. The Merial people were pretty good, and we pulled hair and identified each calf in terms of what they were (CC, CT, TT). All the calves came from good operators so I was comfortable with the comparison (I did not go and pick some tall lanky steers to compare to the TT calves)and everyone was fed as one pen. By selling on the grid, and working with the lot we were able to gather info on each calf. We then cross referenced the calf and were able to sort the calves based on which of the genes they possessed. And the results were suprising. I definitely found that the calves having a "T" gene were more profitable to feed because they were hitting the grid and they were done up to three weeks sooner then the CC calves. The last few years have been trying - but a actually made a small (very small) profit feeding the "T" cattle. But the CC cattle more then made up the difference in losses.

It is actually quite interesting. It can be very detailed - I have a novel of my own data and sceintific data but it is a simple concept. It is not the end all be all but it is a tool, especially for me in the exotic purebred business to differeniate and offer value to my commercial customers.

[grassfarmer]

So if you can sell more TT animals to your bull customers at higher prices I assume you select in future for more TT cattle in your herd? How does this affect the herd? Has anyone tried TT cattle on a net feed efficiency test -aren't they only better at laying down fat/ maturing earlier because they eat substantially more? This would be worth knowing as it could lead to breeders moving to higher maintanence herd if the heifer calves inherit the same traits as their brothers.
Like all selection for carcase traits I don't think their is enough transparancy, and there certainly isn't enough monetary "trickle down" from packer to cow/calf producer to make them worth catering for unless you own the cattle right through the chain. Certainly not in comparison to the herd efficiency savings you could make by owning a herd of cows with high fertility and true maternal traits.