NAFTA Ruling on Softwood Lumber

[madcow]

daretodiffer I agree with you ! cowman ,I'm a bit disappointed in you,your sounding like an oil-man rather than a cow-man,but I can see your angle as well,oil well that is ! I'd be the same if I had oil of my own !

What really ticks me off, is the 'BSE crisis', it never existed in the first place. We had a world class animal health surveillance system that worked. We found a potential threat ,removed it from the food chain. We have the safest beef in the world. It should have been business as usual,with a premium on our beef for being the safest in the world.Period.Instead we were derailed completely by a bunch of U.S. crack pots that played political B.S..A big ,protectionist ,self interested, uninformed bunch of dimwits ! And let me explain,, I have relatives & friends in Arizona,California,Michigan, and Mass. I was talking to a friend from Michigan last month and I mentioned the mess the beef industry was in and he says "that's too bad ,I hope you guys can get the hoof & mouth thing straightened out so you can get back in business !!"I kid you not !To them ,I'm the guy from "Canada" who lives in the igloo and hunts caribou and trades with the Indians.The first time one of my cousins was here he expected snow on the hills in August ,and was amazed we had paved roads and cable TV.He was 15 and lived in Boston and had no clue of the world beyond their own borders.
We need to stick together as a nation and not allow any sector to be bullied. Or I guess we need to act a little more'American"towards them. Oil stick up for beef,sticks up for pork or soft wood or what ever ,because at the end of the day ,when one suffers ,we all suffer a little and it compounds itself.
Having a bad day! 2 steps forward and 3 steps back is getting to be an old story.

[cowman]

Well madcow, I am a western seperatist and have been all my life so don't really buy into that old "we have to help each other"! That is getting a little old?
I know you live in the Maritimes and I wonder how you like getting screwed on your off shore gas and oil? Do you like sending your wealth to Quebec?
The fact is oil and gas are the thing driving our export surplus and the regions producing it should be beniffitting? Now in Alberta we definitely are benifitting, but no where near what we should! The fact is there has been a massive transfer of wealth out of Alberta into?...you guessed it...Quebec via Ottawa!
I believe the people of Alberta are slowly beginning to realize they are only here to be a cash cow for Ottawa...a poll of Calgary businessmen show a strong position of leaving this country!
Hopefully the Martin Liberals will get a strong majority in the upcoming election and people in Alberta will finally realize it is time to go!

[madcow]

Well cowman,I don't support the theory of anyone's benefit by separation and my theory is simply this,smaller is weaker ,less diversity ,less resources of all flavors,be it oil,lumber,people,fish,ideas!.The power in numbers and the divide and conquer effect is real. If Alberta did separate and say it's 2050 and the oil flow has been driven wild by greed,the oil's gone now and Alberta is a land locked country reduced to cattle ,wind and tourism?(just using extremes here)??/or the oil is still there and you decide to keep it for your own 'national' use,,, but the U.S. decides they want you to keep up the flow ,as agreed to when you wiggled your way out of Canada.How much resistance can the Alberta military put up against the U.S.giant,,,you may end up as an extra state,you know ,,,so ,,,the U.S. can properly protect their oil interests.....oops I mean protect you from someone like Saddam Martin or Osamma Bin Harper in the terrible evil doer regime of Canadahar,, or the sleeper terror cells of I'llkidya!!

Like Red Green says " Remember,,we're all in this together,,I'm pullin' for ya "


You or anyone you know use any 'eastern hay' a few years back when the drought was at it's worst.It may not have amounted to a lot but we sent what we could,even though some said we would be better off if we let some of the western industry blow away with the drought.Couldn't let that happen to a fellow Canadian,,,would you do the same if the tables were turned????????????

[cowman]

Nope, never got any eastern hay. Never applied for any. Believe in taking care of myself. Lots of people couldn't.
Actually Alberta would be a lot better off out of Canada and why would you ever think we wouldn't want to sell our production to the USA? The fact is the oilsands can supply the USA for a long, long time.
I have no problem with the concept of helping others out, but I do not think it is neccessary when they won't do anything to help themselves? I do resent a federal government who takes and gives nothing in return. They can keep their medicare and they can keep their Canada pension.
I often wonder how many people from the Maritimes are out here in Alberta working in the patch? They are welcomed as hard workers and within a few years they are more Albertan than the Albertans! They ain't never going back!
Alberta is more than a province...it truly is a new mindset or "distinct society" if you will?
It is a state of mind where everyone can succeed if they work hard and take some risks! Instead of a mindset of "the government knows all, and will take care of me"!
A lot of people out here who were wrecked in the drought or the BSE crisis just moved out of agriculture right into the oil patch and have done very well for themselves...that is MY Alberta!
Personally I have no fear of the USA taking us over. In fact I believe that is where we are heading someday anyway? The fact is America is the "show"? It is the land of opportunity and we'd be one hell of a lot better off if we were Americans?

[grassfarmer]

Madcow, I'm with you - never believed that splitting countries up into independant regions in this day and age is progress.
Cowman, I laugh when I read the patriotic claptrap "It is a state of mind where everyone can succeed if they work hard and take some risks!" - does this apply to family farms in Alberta which are falling by the wayside?, screwed by trans-national corporations, with the aid of our beloved Alberta Government.
What are we doing wrong? not working hard enough or not taking enough risks? This attitude certainly seems ingrained in Albertan ranchers and prevents them from taking collective action to help themselves (eg building independant slaughter plants)
This fierce independance and faith in "free markets", the Alberta advantage and no Government interference didn't prevent the acceptance of Eastern hay by some, drought relief money and BSE bail out money by everyone else. Face it we are just as hooked on subsidies as anyone else in Canada.

[PureCountry]

Cowman you've really flipped. Better off as Americans??!!?? That's like telling a Scot he's better off being English as far as I'm concerned! Piss on that!! It'll be a cold day in Hell when I'll sit idly by and see Canada or even Alberta absorbed into the US of A. I can't friggin believe you wrote that!

The USA is a "show" alright. They're a show on how to screw everyone else in mankind to get your own way, and keep a blanket pulled over the eyes of the general public all the while you're doing it!! How naive are you??!!??

Did you ever see a bully or a big brother knock around the little brother,and when someone hollers, "Hey what's going on out there?" they say, "Oh nothin."? THAT'S THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT'S ENTIRE POLICY ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS FOR PETE'S SAKE!!! They do whatever they like and have the money, power, stroke, and most importantly, THE MEDIA, to make it all sound good.

I know Corporate America owns alot of our industry already, but that does'nt mean they own us!!

I'd agree our country is very flawed, cowman. Our government is corrupt in my opinion, and does very little for the long term sustainability of the nation, let alone agriculture! But to say we'd be better off as Americans is an absolute insult to any Albertan, and I resent the Hell out of it!

[cowman]

Well I don't think you have to worry to much as you are still in the majority! I will note however with NAFTA we moved a lot closer?
Who do you think built the oil and gas business in Alberta? The business that actually fuels our prosperity? Guess what...it wasn't Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal?
Grassfarmer: I hate to tell you this but agriculture is pretty well on the ropes in Canada, the USA, and a good portion of Europe. That doesn't mean we have to stay slaves? There are ways out? Whether that means leaving agriculture or doing something different? If cows can't cut it maybe a golf course will? If you are married to the cows I guess that is just your choice and you must grin and bare it!
I have no problem taking the BSE pittance payments! The government screwed up their job by allowing the feed regulations and they deserve to pay...in fact I believe someone is in the process of suing them over that very matter?
I am often amazed at how vehement people can be at the US? Don't they realize without the US we would be a third world country? They are not only our main(almost sole) customer as well as our protector?
I do believe Canada will disinegrate within the next few years. Quebec will be first to go, hopefully followed by the west.
I doubt the Americans would even wany most of Canada? But they might just welcome a right wing thinking type of people who could actually pay their way?

[cowman]

cowman, I do think that the Ugly American syndrome does cause backlash against the US. They sat at the table when NAFTA was being developed, they signed on the bottom line when Mulroney was selling our country down the tube, and now even though they have had a good deal out of NAFTA since its inception, they do not want to tow the line on the lumber issue. That is not fair ball and everybody including the US know it.

We all know, or should know that when oil was discovered in AB, no eastern banker on Bay Street would bankrole exploration out here in the hinterlands of Alberta so the US companies stepped up to the plate. The result has been employment and growth for Canada, much of it on the back of the industry in Alberta. I have no problem with the US investment because many Albertans and Canadians with the vision and guts to take a chance have become very wealthy and done a lot for this province.

[dferguson]

Cowman; Try to see past Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec City when you view Canada, can you? As far as resources are concerned, the west has always benifitted from our most vauable resource, our well educated children. Balance that against your oil well in the back quarter. Your oil will likely be too expensive for your grandchildren to use anyway.

[cowman]

Well they definitely should be one of our most valuable resources considering the amount of money we spend on their education! Unfortunately we really don't need all these little professors but people who know how to get out and make a buck, think for themselves and actually do something? Which usually means we need to import them from somewhere!
I hope you were being sarcastic when you said "our well educated children"? A better term would be our "well brainwashed sheeple"?