NAFTA Ruling on Softwood Lumber

[madcow]

cowman ,from where I'm sitting (N.S.), separation means smaller, less effective pieces in a situation where we are already being bullied. We need a stronger federal government,maybe with a more "farmer" attitude. The balls to deal with a much larger trade bully and the unwillingness to quit until it's right. You may have a point that the trade of primary products like cattle,grain,lumber or fish may just be peanuts in the over all trade picture. But the damage done here to us ' primary producers' has a "trickle up"effect in weakening the overall economy.
JD4ME had it right- "Amazing how when the US loses a ruling they still want to negotiate but if the shoe was on the other foot they'd be saying "nope a deals a deal and the panels ruling is final ". The poor little rich kid attitude . And f_s ,Canada may have been more successful pre NAFTA in dealing with issues for primary production. We need a federal government with balls enough to pursue the notion that the 'F' stands for FAIR in NAFTA. And we still have the oil,natural gas and electricity to dangle as a carrot or use as leverage.We have been bullied as a nation long enough and it's not just the primary producers who are hurt ,it affects us all !

[cowman]

Read a very interesting piece in the Globe and Mail yesterday dealing with Canadas' trade surplus. Apparently we have a trade surplus of over $5 billion dollars. Our total exports are $37 billion and our imports are around $32 billion. America has a trade DEFICIT of $57 billion!
It was also interesting to note our oil exports amounted to $2.4 billion in June of 2005? This would imply that we are probably pushing close to $24 billion in export oil...not to mention how many $billions in gas? Now consider what might happen if America decided to buy their oil and gas somewhere else? Not to hard to see we would be bankrupt within days?
It is also very apparent that the western provinces are accounting for a huge portion of the real wealth creation in this country? I wonder why anyone would want to be treated the way we have, while defacto we are financing this country?
Time for people to take a real hard look at the economics of this country and consider their options?
Softwood lumber, wheat, and cattle(to the US)...what portion of the export pie do they bring in? Is it important enough to even register in the big picture?

[madcow]

FarmRanger,, I agree with your take on that,but,Canadian political history has a bit of a time delay,Chretien's legacy is still in its refining/ defining stage.He'll be our crook,,,,,,,,,later,,,,,,,,,,

[JD4ME]

In regards to the volume of trade goods currently being sent to the US the ones that are being slapped with tarriffs and are in dispute wheat,softwood lumber at the fore (for us in the west anyhow) Klein said during a comment period at the recent premiers conference in Banff. They amount to around 4% of the trade numbers with the US.

However I go back the sentiment voiced by many premiers of frustration over the current lack of a binding dispute settlement body for NAFTA and the need for one that can be outside political interference.
If you are concerned as I am about the need for a revamp of NAFTA to include this make sure you take the time to push whatever buttons you can to keep it on the minds of the politicians so maybe we can get something like this happening.
Be it through farm groups, provincial MLA's office or your local Ag. service board(in alberta) make sure it's got some traction.

[JD4ME]

I would think that we do have some leverage with the US on the energy side.
Lobbying provincial governments may help put the pressure on the feds to work to get some amendments to NAFTA but if it won't benefit the US we will be wasting our time.

[farmers_son]

The ruling of the Extraordinary Challenge Committee should have been the final word. However negotiations on softwood lumber are scheduled in a couple of weeks. Hopefully Canada will not send representatives to these meeting and instead insist on the Committee’s decision being upheld.

NAFTA and before that CUSTA was an all encompassing trade agreement between Canada and the U.S. It was a negotiated agreement that took into consideration all trade between the countries. The U.S. cannot continue to enjoy the benefits of the overall trade with Canada but separately insist on negotiating commodity specific agreements.

I believe what the U.S. is asking for is Canada to agree to limit exports of softwood lumber to the U.S. Canadian cattle producers should be under no illusion that the U.S. will at some point attempt to do the same with live cattle and beef.

[daretodiffer]

With all the snorting and stamping of feet over the U. S. failure to live up to free trade rules and illegally tax our exports, I wonder when the Canadian collective will get up the nerve to use Article 1905 of NAFTA. This allows Canada to start a bilateral consultation process on the grounds that the U.S. is violating the Agreement. A very likely win, would give Canada the right to withdraw benefits that it extended to the US under NAFTA. One of these benefits we could withdraw is the provision that obligates Canada (and Alberta) to share its energy resources with the U. S. in times of shortage. Another benefit is the priviledge which allows U. S. corporations to sue Canadian governments for damages as they threatened to do when we tried to stop allowing a harmful additive to be put into transportation fuel. We are not powerless with the elephant. We do have alternatives. Its time we had the guts to openly consider them.

[cowman]

While it is all right to speculate about how we can bring the Americans around by threatening to cut off the oil and gas, it is maybe time to look at reality? The fact is oil and gas are what is keeping this country solvent...and yep it is America who is buying it!
In the big picture our cattle/beef trade hardly registers in comparison with our energy exports.
I also find it is usually people who have no stake in the energy business who are real eager to cut exports? Of course this is a case of hiding their heads in the sand because the fact is oil and gas affect everyone...whether we like it or not?
We certainly don't want some idiot government interfereing in a market that is obviously working? As far as the provision that a country can't impose a different set of rules for domestic use, compared to how it treats its NAFTA partners: Is this a bad thing? Have you ever heard of the NEP, where the Canadian government put export taxes on oil and gas, for"the good of Canada"? Well it certainly wasn't good for my part of Canada! Or for me personally! But sure was handy for the eastern consumer, because he got subsidized energy...at my expense!
Here is a fact: The oil and gas I own are simply mine. I don't want my own government undermining my best efforts to make money on them. The whole idea of phoney government restrictions on my gas and oil are nothing less than outright theft! There is no reason Canadians can't buy it? If an American will pay X amount of dollars for it, then let the Canadian consumer step up to the plate and match it?...It's called free enterprize?

[madcow]

daretodiffer I agree with you ! cowman ,I'm a bit disappointed in you,your sounding like an oil-man rather than a cow-man,but I can see your angle as well,oil well that is ! I'd be the same if I had oil of my own !

What really ticks me off, is the 'BSE crisis', it never existed in the first place. We had a world class animal health surveillance system that worked. We found a potential threat ,removed it from the food chain. We have the safest beef in the world. It should have been business as usual,with a premium on our beef for being the safest in the world.Period.Instead we were derailed completely by a bunch of U.S. crack pots that played political B.S..A big ,protectionist ,self interested, uninformed bunch of dimwits ! And let me explain,, I have relatives & friends in Arizona,California,Michigan, and Mass. I was talking to a friend from Michigan last month and I mentioned the mess the beef industry was in and he says "that's too bad ,I hope you guys can get the hoof & mouth thing straightened out so you can get back in business !!"I kid you not !To them ,I'm the guy from "Canada" who lives in the igloo and hunts caribou and trades with the Indians.The first time one of my cousins was here he expected snow on the hills in August ,and was amazed we had paved roads and cable TV.He was 15 and lived in Boston and had no clue of the world beyond their own borders.
We need to stick together as a nation and not allow any sector to be bullied. Or I guess we need to act a little more'American"towards them. Oil stick up for beef,sticks up for pork or soft wood or what ever ,because at the end of the day ,when one suffers ,we all suffer a little and it compounds itself.
Having a bad day! 2 steps forward and 3 steps back is getting to be an old story.

[cowman]

Well madcow, I am a western seperatist and have been all my life so don't really buy into that old "we have to help each other"! That is getting a little old?
I know you live in the Maritimes and I wonder how you like getting screwed on your off shore gas and oil? Do you like sending your wealth to Quebec?
The fact is oil and gas are the thing driving our export surplus and the regions producing it should be beniffitting? Now in Alberta we definitely are benifitting, but no where near what we should! The fact is there has been a massive transfer of wealth out of Alberta into?...you guessed it...Quebec via Ottawa!
I believe the people of Alberta are slowly beginning to realize they are only here to be a cash cow for Ottawa...a poll of Calgary businessmen show a strong position of leaving this country!
Hopefully the Martin Liberals will get a strong majority in the upcoming election and people in Alberta will finally realize it is time to go!

[madcow]

Well cowman,I don't support the theory of anyone's benefit by separation and my theory is simply this,smaller is weaker ,less diversity ,less resources of all flavors,be it oil,lumber,people,fish,ideas!.The power in numbers and the divide and conquer effect is real. If Alberta did separate and say it's 2050 and the oil flow has been driven wild by greed,the oil's gone now and Alberta is a land locked country reduced to cattle ,wind and tourism?(just using extremes here)??/or the oil is still there and you decide to keep it for your own 'national' use,,, but the U.S. decides they want you to keep up the flow ,as agreed to when you wiggled your way out of Canada.How much resistance can the Alberta military put up against the U.S.giant,,,you may end up as an extra state,you know ,,,so ,,,the U.S. can properly protect their oil interests.....oops I mean protect you from someone like Saddam Martin or Osamma Bin Harper in the terrible evil doer regime of Canadahar,, or the sleeper terror cells of I'llkidya!!

Like Red Green says " Remember,,we're all in this together,,I'm pullin' for ya "


You or anyone you know use any 'eastern hay' a few years back when the drought was at it's worst.It may not have amounted to a lot but we sent what we could,even though some said we would be better off if we let some of the western industry blow away with the drought.Couldn't let that happen to a fellow Canadian,,,would you do the same if the tables were turned????????????

[cowman]

Nope, never got any eastern hay. Never applied for any. Believe in taking care of myself. Lots of people couldn't.
Actually Alberta would be a lot better off out of Canada and why would you ever think we wouldn't want to sell our production to the USA? The fact is the oilsands can supply the USA for a long, long time.
I have no problem with the concept of helping others out, but I do not think it is neccessary when they won't do anything to help themselves? I do resent a federal government who takes and gives nothing in return. They can keep their medicare and they can keep their Canada pension.
I often wonder how many people from the Maritimes are out here in Alberta working in the patch? They are welcomed as hard workers and within a few years they are more Albertan than the Albertans! They ain't never going back!
Alberta is more than a province...it truly is a new mindset or "distinct society" if you will?
It is a state of mind where everyone can succeed if they work hard and take some risks! Instead of a mindset of "the government knows all, and will take care of me"!
A lot of people out here who were wrecked in the drought or the BSE crisis just moved out of agriculture right into the oil patch and have done very well for themselves...that is MY Alberta!
Personally I have no fear of the USA taking us over. In fact I believe that is where we are heading someday anyway? The fact is America is the "show"? It is the land of opportunity and we'd be one hell of a lot better off if we were Americans?