grassfarmer?

[grassfarmer]

The things you propose are moving closer to nature and that is the way to go if we have to compete with low cost imports from South America in future. People talk about not being able to compete because of our cold winters - well you can compete better if your animals feed requirements are shut down as much as possible in winter and working flat out in summer. It could reduce the custom machinery / fertiliser and fuel costs component in your operation as well.
Having said that you can consistantly make silage for $20 - this is the first time I have bought silage this cheap. I am in a cheaper feed area and the opportunities for forage abound around here. I have a good relationship with my neighbours at the colony and they always have at least one or two quarters that have too many weeds or some other problem. Ultimately I am still dependant on someone else farming and selling byproducts (silage or straw)at a price I couldn't produce them for - which is OK as long as it lasts.

[cswilson]

I think as long as there are farmers there will be a cost effective source of winter feed-we buty all our feed and only winter on hay maybe 1 in 3 years -one year we bought heated canola bales and shredded them and swath grazed all winter. Have wintered on flax straw and pellets,straight canola hay,pea straw and pellets,wheat straw and pellets-even during the worst of the drought our feed costs have never exceeded $1.00 per day per cow. I try to keep equipment costs pretty miniscule-we usually try and get our feed delivered to the cows mouth as much as possible. My equipment inventory consists of a 1986 1 ton with a bale deck,a team of horses,a bale sleigh and a combine hopper for feeding grain. We feed 4-600 head of cattle a day with that-I have neighbors with 100 head who 'Need' a front wheel assist tractor,bale shredder etc-I think you can't have more money tied up in iron than in cattle. Ohh I forgot I have 20- 5 gallon pails too lol.

[cowman]

Now I will be the first to admit I don't know much about silage, but I often wonder about the economics of it? Grassfarmer bought silage, delivered in the pit for $25/ton? I assume this is a very decent price?
If silage is taken at 65% moisture how does that compare to baled hay at 13% moisture? How much actual dry matter do you get for your $25? If silage was brought down to 13% moisture(like hay) then in fact you are paying for 791 lbs.? Or in fact $63.21/ton for an equivalent value of hay? Which I guess is in the ballpark for hay this year?
Now I would suggest that might be the way to go if you have the equipment to feed silage and there isn't any more waste than with hay? There are lots of ways to feed hay and it too can be very wasteful if you aren't careful? A classic example is the round bale feeder?
50 lbs. of silage at 65% moisture is equivalent to 17.5 lbs. of 13% hay? That certainly isn't enough feed to satisfy a cow...at least on its own? Straw could be a filler without a doubt...just like it can be with hay?
I think Cs Wilson has the right attitude about trying to do it as cheap as possible and being adaptable to changing feed conditions? One thing we all learned from the drought is cows can do very well on canola straw!
As I said I don't know much about silage, but it does seem strange to me to be hauling a whole lot of water around? That costs money.

[farmers_son]

Cswilson: Our feeding equipment is similar to yours. You could also mention a fork in addition to the 5 gallon pails.

Kpb: I did not read your post carefully enough, my mistake. I would usually not include land costs if doing costing on my farm either but if you are comparing custom off farm grazing costs to your cost of wintering using farm raised silage then I would think you need to include a value for the use of your land to keep the comparison fair.

I think silage is expensive feed but it does capture the nutrients that are available. At some point the cost of putting up feed does exceed the advantages of having it in the pit or in a bale and then having to haul it out to the cows as the cows are capable of harvesting the crop themselves. The point at which cost exceeds advantage will vary from operation to operation.

I believe costs and returns should be expressed in terms of the production limiting resource. Examples include per acre, per cow, per square foot, per man hour. How best to express costs could then vary from operation to operation. I tend to think that for many producers the limiting resource is cash. I therefore tend to view returns in terms of income versus cash outlay. If I can find a way to get the job done using on farm non cash resources versus having to write a cheque then that is the preferred course of action for me and my cows tend to get to do the harvesting if the other course of action is hiring custom.

[cswilson]

Had a friend with a master's degree in an. science stop in the other day-we weere talking bought charging out labor costs-he'd just came home to haul all his bales. His reasoning was labor is a cost if it means you are missing out on earning the money-if it just means two less hours in the coffeeshop a day thenit's just being more productive.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman,
To correct your relative value calculations 65% moisture silage is costing $71.42/ton of DM where hay at $63.21 at 13% moisture will cost $72.65/ton of DM. I know I will get better feed value out of this silage than hay delivered in at $60 a ton. It also is more convenient to feed straw with, mix minerals in with, snow water cows with, hold over for another year as well as having substantially less wastage both in storage and in feeding. Having said that I am not tied to silage - I will feed straw, hay, canola silage, pellets whatever is available at least cost/best value.

Farmers_son, I also use pails and a fork but these things are a lifestyle choice and should be done in moderation! I noticed a real difference on moving to Canada in the amount of this type of physical activity undertaken. Having spent many years forking bale silage to cattle in archaic 1800s stone buildings and using a hand sc****r and shovel to remove the manure at the other end I sure appreciate how easy everything is in Canada - the outdoor corrals, bale processors to bed etc etc. My back doesn't miss sheep shearing or spending 2 weeks with three men to gather the stones off a 20 acre ploughed field! I'm trying to find the balance between doing some of the simple manual tasks I've done all my life and going native - it seems there is a tool for every job in Canada with a motor on it! Exercise is good for you but too much hard physical activity can lead to health troubles too.

[cowman]

You know I've never been able to convince myself to buy a bale processer, just couldn't justify the price tag...but then I have access to basically free straw and don't worry too much about how much I use. Just roll the hay out with the front end loader and they eat all of it.
I wonder also what the upkeep is on a bale processer ...seems to be a lot of really beat up ones at auctions.
I also wonder how much a feed wagon might cost in terms of actual cash and upkeep? I thought the idea was supposed to be "less iron" not more? I know you can get some pretty fancy feed wagons at some pretty fancy prices! Do you have to keep them in a heated building or do they ever freeze up? One more question? Does silage ever freeze up and you get big frozen chunks?

[grassfarmer]

Well I maybe bought a bale processor too soon - before I'd seen enough alternate ways to do things. It is a useful machine though although the oil pipes give trouble when it's 40 below! The Schuler silage wagon is a real simple and cheap machine , very low maintanence. My total investment in these was $16,000 for a new bale pro and used silage wagon - besides my tractor they are my only machinery.
Another role for the bale pro is blowing out a pile of straw to mix with the silage - it beats paying $5 a bale to custom tub grind it.

[cswilson]

What do you think it costs you to grind a bale with your bale processor-we try and buy a field of straw right next to our winter pasture. I hire a guy to haul and grind them with his bale processor. Usually do a weeks worth at a time.I'd actually like to custom winter a thousand cows or so-so I coould get all my pastures covered in manure very winter-sure it would more than double grass production.

[kpb]

cowman, I do not own a bale processor and, like you, I have never been able to justify the cost. I have over the years owned a number of silage wagons and currently have two silage feed trucks--one to use and one for back-up. They were bought for a total of $20,000 together used. The thing about a pull-type silage wagon with lots of animals to feed is that you are either hooking and unhooking all the time, which can be a pain at 40 below or you are using one tractor to load and one to pull.

I generally feed quite a few calves here in the winter so went to the trucks several years ago. Everything works ok but the chain system at the back breaks down sometimes and the dog clutch to discharge the feed is a weak point. Also, eventually, the bottoms tend to rust out.

Silage can definitely freeze which is a pain because it sometimes results in a jam at the discharge and having to fork out a couple of tons of feed out of the wagon to get at the jam. It's really hot coming out of the pit but if something happens and it sits in the truck for a while it will freeze. A couple of years ago I bought some canola silage from a guy with a bad crop. It was ok but very greasy and used to lodge in the wagon and bung everything up. I mixed it with the regular barley silage and the cows ate it ok.

The biggest problem this year with operating any of the wagons, tractors or processors will be the fuel cost. And, if you want to make life easy for yourself and keep them in a heated quonset you'll hve big heating bills. That's why I was thinking a week or so ago about backgrounding. The margins are going to be very slim this year anyway (look at 500 pound feeders versus, say 850 pounders). And then figure in your grain, silage and then big fuel bills, it looks like a no-go to me.


kpb

[grassfarmer]

What does it cost me to grind a bale with a bale pro?- the easy answer is nothing because I have the machine anyway but of course that's not a true cost. The alternative is a cash cost of $5 a bale to get a tub grinder in so I reckon I'm still cheaper than that. Sometimes I don't mix the silage and straw, I feed straw one day and silage the next - that works too. The combination of the two machines lets me buy and utilise any feeds available. I too would be keen to custom feed cows - unfortunately most folks round here winter calve and I'm not volunteering to do that at any price.
You guys that feed with bale trucks, how does it go when you get a heavy snowfall? I'd be a bit nervous in this climate without a FWA and loader to clear a path through big drifts.

[cswilson]

Grassfarmer now don't be silly I bet your cost is a heck of alot closer to $5 than you care to admit-if we get a bad snowfall I hire a 4WD tractor and dozer to clear m,e some feeding paths. Also we'll sometimes put a wek or so feed out in a storm field so if things get to bad we can just turn cows into it.