Expansion?

[Cattleman]

The problem with that grassfarmer is that youngsters still can't get started as they can't afford the crazy rental rates. Especailly if they have to upgrade equipment etc. To many people out there with deep pockets and everything paid for who just pick up a few more quarters to justify all the iron they run.

[grassfarmer]

The future I see for these new entrants doesn't involve metal so they shouldn't be hampered by having to upgrade equipment or bid against plow jockeys wanting to "justify" their latest toy by renting more acres.
It's about beef and it's about grass, period. If a young guy rented an existing cattle farm, set it up to summer graze using a few electric fences and piped water and ran custom yearlings or cow/calf pairs for the grazing season he should be able to under bid anyone farming metal to run cows - and make money. Do that in the summer and work on rigs in winter if necessary - bypass all the high costs of ownership and maintaining cattle through our northern winter.
I think there are opportunities for this type of deal in my area.

[cowman]

I doubt many established farmers would want to rent their land out for something like this. Too chancy you'd ever get paid! At the end of the day who is going to pay to get the grass broke up? Some very serious costs involved there?
Rents are, in reality, too high for the farmer actually trying to make a decent profit? And yet the landlord needs something too or why would he want to hold the assett?
I wonder why anyone who is serious about farming(whether grass or crops) would really want to pay $80/acre when they could go to Sask. or Man. or even northern AB, and buy land for two or three years rent?
Farming for young people really doesn't make any sense unless you marry it or inherit it! I believe a young person could make a lot more doing just about anything else?

[grassfarmer]

Ha Ha Cowman - you are too funny!
Coming the same old, old story that grass is a waste of land and no-one should do it. Of course grass growing is totally wrong and it would have to be seeded back to a monoculture of high input, non profitable, cereals once the crazy grass farmer had gone bust.
You've been talking down the beef sector, wanting to cull the national herd, backing the US and backing the packers ever since I found Agriville several years ago - and at the same time expanding your family operation to include more cows and even grass management. It's a very old Scottish trick - talk the industry down and try and get others to leave so you can pick up their land. We are a shrewd people!

[cowman]

grassfarmer: Quit telling all my secrets LOL!
But seriously...I do believe growing grain on the better land is the way to go. I still believe that you can mix the two(grass and grain) in a profitable venture...despite poor grain prices!
Straw and after math grazing can add so much to the bottom line...in my humble opinion?
Yes, grain is a dog! Mainly because our useless government decided they were too cheap to support the Canadian grain farmer and fight the grain wars!
I'm still learning some things about grass. I still believe you need to break up these heavy clay/loam soils every once in awhile and replant?
Hey, I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers! I do know I enjoy seeing a very well grown crop of barley or canola! I really enjoy just walking through a good crop and checking for things like moisture or disease or how well it is filling...and I don't grow any grain!
I even like to run the combine or grain truck for my cousin and I especially enjoy a bit of field work...well at least for a day or so!
My old Dad was 100% farmer! Said he was just in heaven out cultivating or seeding or harvesting! He told me that was as about as close to God as he would ever get in this world! Well whatever!
I wonder...did you grow any crops in Scotland?

[grassfarmer]

I've never grown crops to sell - only to feed livestock. Kale,fodder **** and oats for silage. I understand any producers enjoyment of rearing a good crop whether it be grain, grass or calves - I just can't see how it can apply to a grain crop and not a grass crop? What problem do you see that makes you think you need to "break up these heavy clay/loam soils every once in awhile and replant?"

[cowman]

grassfarmer: As I've said before I'm still learning a lot about grass? The land we fenced off and cell grazed seems to have worked fairly well. It seems in normal grazing situations around here the grass has a tendency to revert to a native fescue(June grass) which really doesn't produce a heavy volume. I guess we'll see if the pasture mix in the cells retains its diversity or if the fescue pushes out the other grass?
I don't see us taking this cell grazing much further as it simply takes too much time! Let me explain that? If we are busy doing something it is a pain to go and make sure everything is going fine. It is so much easier to kick them into a big pasture and check them once a week! I am especially not impressed with these little electric fences! Don't like them, never will!
Nothing more frustrating than having to come home to put the darned cows back in when you have a job to do somewhere else? Wind blows a tree over onto a fence, two cows get fighting, darned moose spooks them through the fence...that sort of thing!

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, " I guess we'll see if the pasture mix in the cells retains its diversity or if the fescue pushes out the other grass?" - that is entirely in your control. There is a lot more to managed grazing than setting up electric fences. Any pasture that declines in productivity and in species diversity is a pasture poorly managed(severe drought excepted) The challenge is to learn enough about grass and grass management to move your pastures the other way. I am constantly amazed at how little I know about grass management - it is a never ending quest for knowledge. 2004 and 2005 have been a great opportunity to improve pasture health and diversity in Central Alberta.
The time issue depends how much money you want to make by improving grass management. I am currently grazing off some pastures that were monocultures of 1/8th inch high bluegrass with patches of wild strawberries and *****toes in 2000. Under a previous zero management system they had probably yielded 20AUDs per acre annually. Today these same pastures are knee deep fescue,bluegrass,smooth brome, timothy, red-clover, sweet clover, alfalfa which easily yields 80AUDs per acre. Intensive grazing management has been the only change here, no re-seeding, no fertiliser, no manure hauling.
In this case it takes me 30 minutes to move fences every second day making 4 acre paddocks. Valueing an AUD on this excellent pasture at $1 means my 30 minutes spent has earned me $240 (60 AUD's extra on 4 acres) What are you doing that earns you more than $480 an hour?

[grassfarmer]

I'm with cowman on this one, moving fences daily isn't my favorite way of spending the grazing season.
Moving cows from pasture to pasture once a week or so, where they have a reliable source of water, minerals in leech proof containers in all pastures and good fences works well here.
The local general store is selling some dinky little push in fence posts for electric fences, I had a chuckle with the feedlot fellow down the road the other day, about how long that fence would last if one bull decided to rub against it for half a minute before he got a shock !!!

Good for you grassfarmer for using grazing methods that work in your operation, whatever works is what producers should use. There isn't a right way or a wrong way to do things. Nobody knows more than the other person about grazing management, and what I do here has worked on this farm for over 30 years.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald1, You can have a "reliable source of water, minerals in leech proof containers in all pastures and good fences" under a daily move system too.
Bulls rubbing on electric fences isn't an issue - it's a misunderstanding of how electric fences work. They are a phsycologic barrier not a physical one - I have run seperate bull/cow groups seperated with a single strand high tensile fence. I've had more trouble with neighbours trashing good 4 strand barb fences than I've had with electric.
I don't know if the comment "Nobody knows more than the other person about grazing management" is scolding me for being a smart@$# it certainly is a nonsensical comment as there are huge differences between peoples knowledge of grazing management. I don't pretend to know it all but I do read, listen and learn from people that have a far greater knowledge than me. I was aiming to pass on what I have learnt to Cowman who asks questions about grazing management usually prefaced by "I don't know much about grass management but.."

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer, I have been in the cattle business for over 30 years and am learning something new every day. If you took offense to my comment about nobody knowing more than the other person thats your issue. I don't like to chastise others for doing something differently than I do, whether its raising a certain breed of cattle or pasturing cattle. I have never yet met anyone who knows everything....everyone that I meet in the cattle business has some valuable information to share, yourself included. That does not mean that you or I know everything !!!

[silverback]

It is amazing how this web site has turned into a gab fest for 4 or 5 people.

Grassfarmer, when you get a minute from your slapping yourself on the back for being the best cowboy in Canada ( and not a stupid crop guy), can you tell us how you needed to increase your stocking rates and AUM's so that you could pay for your internet time? I cannot think that some of the people on this site actually work for a living!

I am also convinced that F-S is a government mole that is trying to convince us all that big government is a good thing.

Have a good night all! (However many as that is?)

[silverback]

silverback, don't underestimate the fact that some of us do work very hard and put in long hours to do so, if you notice the times of some of the posts on here you will recognize that some people get half a days work done pretty darn early in the mornings !!! I enjoy all posts on this site whether or not I agree with them or not...and find that more people are on the site in the winter and times when they are not out working for a living or harvesting or calving the cows or whatever.....

Gotta go because I have a 20 hour day ahead of me tomorrow, working for a living !!!! Just kidding !!!

[cowman]

Well silverback, time is like money? We get to spend it how we see fit. Maybe it would be better to sit in the bar or casino or chase a ball around a golf course?
There aren't a lot of people on this old website anymore, and despite grassfarmers misgivings about me I do enjoy his posts for the information and his off the wall way of looking at things! He also has a wee bit of humour although he usually tries to hide it in righteous indignation!
Got to agree farmers son is a government agent LOL! Well he has his ideas and they reflect what the majority of Albertans probably think? I find he is very informative and very dogged in his pursuit of his opinions?
Emerald has some pretty strong opinions herself and I can just bet she was a tough lady to deal with when she sat on municipal council?
In the big picture though the value of any discussion is that you learn how others think? I am a firm believer every person I meet or talk to has something to teach me...whether it be a millionaire or the bum in the street! In fact the bums' story might be a lot more interesting?

[nicolaas]

Something about intensive grazing with no inputs is bothering me. A question for grass farmer, how sustainable do you think intensive grazing actually is? You are continually clipping the grass with out putting anything back in the soil. Sure the grass is rested before it is grazed, but if you are getting that many grazing days off your land without putting any "new" material back into the soil, one would think you would wear it out after a while. Sure they crap on the land, but that "crap" was already part of the soil at one time, and you are actually taking matter away from your soil everytime you sell one of your cows to a feedlot. In the short term intensive grazing with no fertilizer/fiber inputs may work well, but how about the long term?