Expansion?

[grassfarmer]

nicolaas, I should maybe clarify when I talk about intensive grazing I mean management intensive grazing with the emphasis on the management part. Under this system we don't continually clip - the pastures here only get grazed once or twice in the year. This allows a large volume of plant material to accumulate before each grazing so the cows always trample quite a bit back into the ground along with a lot of manure. It puts more back into the land than conventional grazing because you are producing more grass hence you can graze more cows. At the higher production levels we are currently using some fertiliser but there are other ways to buy in fertility other than as commercial nitrogen - feeding bought in forages on pasture for example. The amount of nutrients leaving the farm in the calves isn't all that great I don't think - they are mostly water. The best proof that it is sustainable was to look back to the days of the buffalo when the prairies were reckoned to be in climax stage of vegetation with no inputs from man - only intensive rotational grazing by huge numbers of buffalo performing short duration heavy grazing sheperded by packs of predators. That is the system we are trying to mimic.

[grassfarmer]

cowman, 'strong opinions' who ???? Little old me ????? I guess I do have some pretty strong opinions and I did have some tough decisions to make when I was on council. Have never shied away from them, figured that if I was going to take the taxpayers money I was darn well not going to sit on the fence when it came to making decisions, even though it was obvious that I would tick somebody off no matter how I voted !!!

I too, enjoy all the posts on this site, and don't really think that Farmers_son is a government agent......he and grassfarmer have their views on many things and most of the time I agree with them, but one thing for sure I don't like to see any posts that become nasty toward anyone.

[silverback]

I really don't mean to be "nasty", but when the post's on this site are dominated by one guy or one opinion, I just have to say something sometimes.

Grassfarmer seems to be doing some things right - for his area and his situation, but I really get the impression that it is his way or stupidity. If he is making as much profit as he says - excellent. Soon the rest of us will figure it out and do the same thing. However, not everyone lives in the best place for growing grass.

[cowman]

I do believe there are areas that are more suited to an intensive type of system, without a doubt. The fact is the land can only support a certain level of production no matter what system you use?
So if you live on the prairie with low rainfall and maybe poorer soil then you can't really expect it to produce like the parkland, no matter what system you use?
It is always nice to have the luxury of being able to rest land and do all the things right? However quite often that isn't reality as the piper has to be paid, sort of thing? Not much sense doing it right if you can't pay the bills?
There has got to be an effort by all society if they intend for the farmer to be "the keeper of the land"? Unfortunately that isn't happening and won't happen? The farmer is left to his own devices to try to sc**** out a living and survive...thus we have this constant struggle to mine the land for every dime available? Modern technology has kept the farmer one step ahead of the poor house, but just barely! Now it would seem that modern technolgy is even failing us and the cost/price squeeze has pretty well caught up to us?
No solution. We just hang on as long as we can.

[cowman]

silverback I wasn't refering to you when I said 'nasty'. I agree that anyone that is succeeding with certain methods on their operation should obviously continue but that does not mean that their way is the right way for the rest of us, or that we are all inept idiots because we do not subscribe to anothers way of thinking.

I get a bit out of patience when folks seem to be preaching 'down' to others vs sharing some of their experiences and knowledge. There is a wide variety of knowledge among the folks that use this site, and I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

[farmers_son]

Silverback: Just to put your mind at ease, I am not a government mole. Sorry to disappoint you but I am just another farmer like everyone else.

At least you did not think I worked for the packers. LOL.

[grassfarmer]

Oh well I guess I'd best stop posting here - i'll wait for silverback to tell me when I can start replying to posts again. I seem to be the bad guy on here but when I read the threads I don't see I'm any more adament that my way is the right way than many of the other posters. We are all just sharing our different views and perspectives. My posts have never been condemning about others peoples politics or caracter assasinations of people that hold different opinions. You win though silverback - I've plenty other things to do with my time. Maybe if everybody stops posting here we can all get back to work - no discussion, no sharing of information, no free speech. Progress?

[rkaiser]

I think! That's okay isn't it.
I think that all this talk about a more natural approach to agriculture can be summed up with volume. We all know that fertilzer and chemical can increase the volume of our crops. Calling these things inputs is a bit of a stretch however. A chemical that changes a plant can't really be called an input. Natural fiberous material in the form of shit or straw, or decaying plant material is another matter.

Sorry off topic there for a moment. Back to the volume thing. We sure are all proud to brag about tons of hay and silage or bushels of grain per acre, but how is that helping the bottom line on any farm, or on the farming situation in general. Supply and demand is how most business in this world functions, is it not?

It is pretty much a joke to say that any one of us is making a profit from farming if you were to include every facet of our farms. Cowman does a pretty good job of breaking down the costs and what not, but never really ads in his land value.

Somebody show me how a fellow can buy land, machinery and or cattle without a little help from papa like all of us have had.

Therefore we can only do what we can do. Believe in what we beleive, and try to bufffalo the next guy with stories of profit from our bumper crop or our great big calves.

Have fun guys, but remember, every one of us is full of it.

[rkaiser]

randy in todays real world it is pretty tough to get started in farming, never mind make a living without some help from old dad or a fairy godmother !! In fact I don't think many young folks even want to farm these days without another income to fall back on. Many folks still believe in the industry and are doing everything possible to keep on, without having the luxury of help from anybody except a friendly banker that likely isn't too friendly these days.
Everytime I run into any of the farmers around this area they seem to look older, more worn out and just plain tired of the battle, and that is likely the same in many areas.

[silverback]

I apologize Grassfarmer - I got in from a very long day and all I saw was people on the internet. I guess I was jealous.

Emrald - I hear all the time about how tired families are with farming and how they want out. They also say how it is too bad there are no "younger" families to take on the farm game.

However, when the decision is finally made, more often than not the outgoing farmer will look to the biggest and richest guy in the area to rent out to, or sell to. They all want the absolute most they can get and are not willing to take even 1000 dollars a year less from someone who is trying to get going. They all talk big, but money talks bigger. Even a smaller farmer who is trying hard to do things right and is taking care of what he is doing gets overlooked by the farmer with the big, new iron and a strong financial backer. Any thoughts on that? Please respond Grassfarmer - LOL !

[cowman]

Silverback:Everyone of us, no matter what business we are in, has an obligation to take care of our assetts for ourselves, our spouses, our families? We don't owe the guy down the street anything?
I will note however quite often the landlord farmer will rent his land to a longtime neighbor, rather than the big operator in the area? I rent my grainland to my cousin, might be able to squeeze a few extra dollars out of someone else, but we have a good relationship with a shared past and I know the quality and honesty of the man! He could no more cheat me than he could himself!
So many farmers have set themselves up to a situation where it is impossible to pass on the farm? Why is that? I would suggest they didn't have their priorities in place for a successful transfer? Add to that the fact that farming is such a dog of a business that it can't generate the neccessary income to retire decently while passing on the farm to the next generation.
I can't see that changing?
Randy is absolutely right when he says it is almost impossible to buy the land,machinery, livestock to run a successful farm? You either inherit it, marry it, or have another source of income?
The fact is without a drastic improvement in the cost/price squeeze, land in Alberta will never pay for itself? I don't know what the average price of land is in the corrider but it is very high around Red Deer? In that $2500 to $3500 range! How do you pay for that with just about any agricultural output?
Now grassfarmer would argue that in reality the appreciation of the value of the land would justify owning it and that is true...when you sell it! However it is very hard to eat appreciation and keep the wolf from the door on "paper" assetts?
There is no real solution here.

[cowman]

silverback, I don't really think it is up to a retiring farmer to put less dollars in his pocket. Many older farmers rely on their rental income combined with their pension to have enough to enjoy a few healthy years before they can't travel or do any of the other things that they couldn't take time to, or afford to do in their years of working their backside off on the farm.

I know many such farmers and they are going to leave a lot to their kids when their land is liquidated but as long as they either want to remain living on the farm and renting it out or moving off the farm and doing the same, they likely haven't amassed the fortune that would allow them to be somebody's benefactor.

[cowman]

just want to add that I don't think you need to apologize to anyone silverback. If any of us can dish it out we should be able to take it in return !!!!!

[silverback]

I fully realize that nobody needs to sacrifice their retirement or their families future when they are retiring or renting out the farm. All I am saying is that it seems that the decision ends up going down to the last penny. Nobody seems to stop and think if they can do without that last dollar or two per acre when it could mean helping out a younger neighbor. I guess I would like to think that being a good steward and a decent neighbor should mean something, maybe just wishful thinking in these times.

[cswilson]

Most oldtimers want to make their money twice-want you to pay cash so they don't have to pay tax etc. Got a group of them going one morning at the coffeeshop said they should double family allowance and cut pensions back lol. I guess most of them are a bit greedy because they had alot of lean years on the way up-but like I said most aren't too keen on giving anyone a break-I know of several thousand tons of hay rotting in the stack up here because the old boys want drought prices still for it.