U.S. to Open Border to All Cnd. Cattle

[JD4ME]

typically American attitude don't see the world as it is see it as you are told it is.

[GodLovesTheUSA]

Of course there is some truth to your comments. Still you the reality is--
You NEED to sell your beef. Americans have quite enough of their own and do not really need to buy yours.
I know about the plank in my own American eye. Still I know that I have a large American market to sell my cattle into. I do not really need to worry about export market markets, although I would benefit from them and I consider my self a free trader.

Can you see past the plank in your Canadian eye and the Canadian problem and maybe try to find solutions?

[cowman]

Ted: When Canada and the USA signed the free trade deal, we actually did gain the RIGHT to sell into your market? Just like you gained the RIGHT to sell into ours?
The free trade deal goes way beyond some little spat over cows! Without a doubt it has been good for both countries?
The dollar thing can be a problem I will admit. However our dollar has risen pretty sharply in the last few years and in reality it is probably pretty close to being fair right now? The rise in our dollar is due to two things: The increased costs of our oil and gas in the American market and quite frankly the USA economy performing very badly in relation to your costs? You can't afford to fight an insane war half way across the world!
How many hundreds of billions have you wasted in Iraq?
I will agree with you that Canada has a surplus of grain and a surplus of cattle. The Canadian producer can produce cheaper than the US farmer for quite a few reasons. The lack of subsidies has forced us to become mean and lean...unlike our American counterpart!
The Canadian farmer was forced to diversify into livestock because US and European subsidies stold all the export grain markets! And now the Americans are using trade harassments to try to stop competition in meat...that their own grain subsidies created!
The fact is we have a deal with the USA and they are trying to welch on that deal? I wonder, do you like to do business with someone who doesn't live up to an agreement? Is that fair?
If Canada retaliated, even briefly, and cut off the oil,gas, and electricity for two weeks, we could bring you to your knees...literally! Fortunately for you we are not going to do that, because we do believe in free trade and want this thing to work!
It is unfortunate that a few small interest groups like R-CALF and the lumber lobby continue to create these trade spats to fill their greedy agendas, with no regard for the big picture? Make no mistake...NAFTA has been very good for every country involved.

[GodLovesTheUSA]

Cowman
I agree that NAFTA has been good for both sides.
The Iraq comment was not useful for this discussion. In previous comments I have let my viewpoints on Canadian gays and Vancouver drug addicts be known. You haven't got a lot to be proud of either. At least we are trying.

Subsides are damaging. There are some signs that the Europeans are cutting back on subsidies. The Canadians have really been the victims of the subsidy war to the same extent you were the beneficiaries of the Cold War agricultural economics.

Don't confuse lack of domestic markets with agricultural efficiency.

I myself have mentioned the oil and gas option. My point however was to encourage my resourceful Canadian friends to attempt to find new markets. The real resource is fertile land, rain and human resources. Try to produce something that someone NEEDS, not just look at their markets and try to think how you could take some of that away.
R-CALF is a bit of a problem. However Canadians have to realize that NAFTA or no NAFTA, when you are trying to push your surplus into a country that does not need your product and has its own supply industry, that problems will occur. Canada is especially needful of convenient export markets. It is incumbent upon Canadian producers to attempt to find products that they have a distinct advantage in producing and that there is a need for. California has distinct ag advantages. Some types of fruit are not convenient for Canadians to produce unless in greenhouses.
What can Canadians provide to us that we do need and can not supply ourselves? Energy is a good example. Why kill this successful export to shore up your exports that we do not need.
Canadians choose your opponents well. You are starting to think like oppressive Americans with that line of thinking. [Cutting energy exports to force your hand with beef]
Instead try to find new markets and products.
Some resourceful thinking may be needed as well as financing from government and banks. However, without new markets, you will be forced to find new things to do with your land.
Strip mine for coal, grow trees for poles etc, produce hay for export, etc.

Canadians have a huge amount of land and resources. Get your scientists working and finding new things to produce and export.
NAFTA and free trade does open doors to cross border commerce. However there will always be resistance if the imports to a country do not meet a need and actually conflict with successful local industries already in place. It’s a wonder there is not a lot more resistance to Canadian beef.
Cheers and good luck.

[silverback]

Are there any U.S. products that flow north that should be stopped if Canada follows the logic you are giving us??

Corn? Cheese? Soybeans? Vegetables?

Your Willowcreek is mad your cows are asked to be tested, we have enough cows, why not keep yours down there?

[kpb]

silverback, I have a few other U.S. imports that we surely don't need--how about cars, trucks (the Japanese make the best half ton around according to the car magazines) and heavy equipment? And what about most electronics and just about any other manufactured good around? The fact is that the reason the U.S. is so gung ho on protectionist policies right now is that they cannot compete with lots of other countries.

You are only protectionist if you realize that you can't compete--otherwise you have nothing to fear from competition. GodLovesAmerica is so scared of U.S. consumers buying Canadian beef that he'll do everything he can, policy-wise, to make sure our meat doesn't reach the U.S. consumer. After all it isn't the U.S. consumer who doesn't want our beef--it's the producer. Why? Because they're scared silly that our beef is better than theres. And you know what--just like most other things in the world these days--they're right, the U.S. is second (or maybe third) best.

kpb

[cowman]

I think kpb said it very well? The American consumer actually wants our product as does the American cattle feeder and packer...the only one who doesn't want it is the American cow/calf producer!
The same thing could be said for California vegetables? Do we NEED them? Actually we can grow vegetables here but not as efficiently as California...at least not year round? I expect the Canadian greenhouse industry would be very happy if California vegetables were banned, but how about the Canadian consumer? Don't think so.
And Ted you can rest assured we won't be cutting off the energy supply, it is what is fueling our econmomy up here and paying the bills!
Take a look at who is Americas number one buyer...and seller? Guess what... it is Canada! Same goes for us!
We are the greatest trading partners in the world! It is not helpful for a very small number of protectionist radicals to try to ruin that relationship...especially over something so phony as BSE?
And finally, yes we have some problems up here with our society going to the dogs, just like America does? And yes we didn't join your insane war in Iraq, however we did support you in Aghganistan when in reality it had nothing to do with us? I believe the majority of Americans now believe the war in Iraq was a mistake and want the administration to get out before more American boys are killed? You need a new president.

[GodLovesTheUSA]

My point is about needs.
Canada used to be in the favorable position of meeting the needs of China and the USSR for wheat in the cold war era when the communist countries did not favor dealing with us.
Those communist countries had a NEED and you had a supply. Your country prospered and those may have been the most prosperous years you ever saw.
That is economics. Find a need and meet it.

Now those good markets are gone and you have transferred your production to beef. Now you have a NEED. You NEED to get rid of your surplus. The difficult point is that you are selling into a country that does not need your product very much.

You depend on free trade and compare your beef exports to tractors cars etc. Yes we need to sell that product but you also need to buy it.

The economy breaks down as it is in the auto industry when the supply exceeds the demand and then the supplier NEEDS to sell their cars more than the market needs to buy it.
Pointing out other successful exports and imports does nothing to help you see that you are producing a product that we do not need and maybe you should find something we do need. You look at what you call a North American market because that scenario meets your NEEDS. Really it is an American market. What you have trouble dealing with is that markets are by nature self serving. It is our market. You are lucky you can sell into it at all.

[GodLovesTheUSA]

My point is about needs.
Canada used to be in the favorable position of meeting the needs of China and the USSR for wheat in the cold war era when the communist countries did not favor dealing with us.
Those communist countries had a NEED and you had a supply. Your country prospered and those may have been the most prosperous years you ever saw.
That is economics. Find a need and meet it.

Now those good markets are gone and you have transferred your production to beef. Now you have a NEED. You NEED to get rid of your surplus. The difficult point is that you are selling into a country that does not need your product very much.

You depend on free trade and compare your beef exports to tractors cars etc. Yes we need to sell that product but you also need to buy it.

The economy breaks down as it is in the auto industry when the supply exceeds the demand and then the supplier NEEDS to sell their cars more than the market needs to buy it.
Pointing out other successful exports and imports does nothing to help you see that you are producing a product that we do not need and maybe you should find something we do need. You look at what you call a North American market because that scenario meets your NEEDS. Really it is an American market. What you have trouble dealing with is that markets are by nature self serving. It is our market. You are lucky you can sell into it at all.

[silverback]

The Japanese could argue very well that they do not "need" your beef. Their farmers would have the same argument as you. What do you say to them?

Why are you so anxious to get your beef back into Japan?. Look after your own consumers then. The Australians have been very happy to have the Japanese market now that you have BSE proven down there.

[Willowcreek]

Silverback- We would not need the Japanese or the Asians for export markets if we weren't carrying the Canadian cattle and packing industry on our back...We (the US) can consume what we produce...

Why hasn't Canada opened up direct markets with Japan? or any other parts of Asia?

If I was a Canadian I would be complaining about my beef federation- or is it just easier to ride the US producers shirttails- and let the US taxpayers fund opening trade markets?- because that seems like what you want to do....

[silverback]

That makes no sense at all.

If the U.S. can consume all that it produces, why are there trade battle threats from Washington for Japan to start taking U.S. beef? Nobody is forcing you to accept our beef, that is a fact. If you don't want it great, we will gladly ship our stuff to Japan instead of you when we get the politics in Japan figured out.

Just shut the doors to the U.S. if you want, but just realize that you don't get to sell to Japan anymore. How does that sound?

[jensend]

hey ted, maybe you don't need our cattle but some americans seem to think they do and that's why they place buy orders up here. by the way did you see where manufacture of american border patrol uniforms was subcontracted to mexico? ironic, eh? it's on drudge.

[cowman]

Willowcreek: Canada obviously did market beef to Japan and other asian countries directly. Actually a good portion of the "American beef" exported to Japan came from Canada through the big IBP plant in Washington?
The question is who did the legwork to establish these markets? It was basically the packers and they are American packers? About 80% of our beef production comes from two AMERICAN packers...Tyson and Cargill? These two packers dominate and control just about every aspect of our industry. In their eyes, there is no border...cattle are cattle!
Now you may not like them but they are a fact of life in Canada and the USA? And quite frankly if you think a ragtag group of little ranchers are going to stop these boys you are living in a fantasy world! Now you R-CALF boys have helped them rack up a very impressive profit in Canada the last couple of years that has allowed them to expand their packing houses! They actually have the capacity to kill every animal available in Canada now, thanks to you!
In the meantime they have access to your meat markets.
And while the American cow herd was shrinking the Canadian herd actually was expanding very fast, so today we actually are producing a lot more calves. Now those calves are going to find a home one way or the other? Is it going to be in the US or Canada...either way you are going to be getting the meat! You don't make the rules, nor do I, the US and Canadian government do...and maybe Tyson/Cargill!
While you fight like hell to keep our beef out, the US government is busy setting up deals that will let Aussie and south American beef in! R-CALF is too busy trying to keep out the Canadian cattle to seem to notice! If you stopped every Canadian animal and every pound of Canadian beef, it won't matter as the SA and Australian meat floods your market!
I wouldn't put a lot of faith in MCOOL saving your butt, as it doesn't seem to be happening? I sincerely doubt your government has any intention of scrapping the cheap food policy just to keep you happy!

[farmers_son]

There is a notion or belief that producers have come to accept that imports hurt live prices. Producers have been led to believe that supply and demand determines the prices for our live cattle, therefore every imported live animal, every pound or kilogram of imported beef drives down live prices. Supposedly it follows that every box of exported beef supports prices. While supply and demand does influence prices and accounts for up and down variations from month to month, at some point producers need to realize that supply and demand is not the only factor influencing their prices.

While supply and demand may explain why prices rise or fall 5 cents per pound during a year, a nearly pure competitive market for live cattle characterized by many weak sellers with a perishable product selling to a few strong buyers who collude to artificially influence live cattle prices explains why the primary cattle industry can only maintain break even margins at best while the rest of the beef value chain enjoys 15% or better returns.

Producer against producer only serves to increase packer profits. The millions spent on both sides of the border by producers advocating or defending against producer trade related barriers could have been better spent on challenging packers to bid fair for our live cattle. The message has to get through to producers that creating trade barriers that have the effect of lowering live cattle prices in other countries in effect limits prices in their country too. The surest way to limit imports is to see the price of live cattle and beef in the other country reach equilibrium with domestic prices. Alternatively the lower the price of live cattle in the other country the greater the pressure to see that product enter the domestic market.

There can be no doubt that the global packing industry uses lower live cattle prices in other countries to drive down domestic prices. Folks, the problem lies not with that producer outside our borders, the problem lies with that packer within our borders. Producer against producer only serves to drain resources away from addressing the real problem.