cais

[blackjack]

...ok...olhoss...you win...but the janitor and single mom could go back to school where the government would pay their way then ...or better yet where are their families to lend support... you bring up a important point we all want to be these independent people until something unexpected happens and then we want government to save us from ourselves...by the way i could live without the programs but they had better end it for the competition as well...

...ps...just think all of the lobbyist that would be out of work if nobody could have a subsidy...lol...and then all the bureaucrats...if only we lived in a perfect world...

[blackjack]

actually olhoss, I subsidize a waitress every time I get good service, its called a TIP !!!
As far as the janitor goes, I can assure you that many of them make a good wage.
There are many opportunities for advanced education, and I know many people who were in lower end no future jobs that have taken advantage of distance learning evening courses and working in the daytime....
There are career choices these days that were not available years ago which allow for individuals to upgrade so they can have a career that provides a higher standard of living.
And just to add an interesting note, in our community the wife of one of the wealthiest retirees works the morning shift at McDonalds because she is bored.....should we feel sorry for her ????

[cowman]

And then again there is EI, Workers compensation, old age pension, subsidized housing, medicare and on and on? We're all on the government tit to one degree or another?
The real masters are companies like Bombardier and guys like Peter Pocklington...they get way more than their fair share!

[olhoss]

"actually olhoss, I subsidize a waitress every time I get good service, its called a TIP !!!"

Ah, now a subsidy is a "TIP". That Liberal thinking must be rubbing off. lol

"As far as the janitor goes, I can assure you that many of them make a good wage."

Oh well, that settles it, there's no doubt you're entitled to a portion of the janitor's hard work to maintain you and your business. As Dingwall said, "I'm entitled to my entitlements".

"There are many opportunities for advanced education, and I know many people who were in lower end no future jobs that have taken advantage of distance learning evening courses and working in the daytime...."

Yes, of course, better entitlements flow from those able to pay more.

"There are career choices these days that were not available years ago which allow for individuals to upgrade so they can have a career that provides a higher standard of living."

And better to pay your entitlements to keep you in the manner in which you would like to become accustomed.

[smcgrath76]

I think the challenge is really to run a business that works regardless of or outside of subsidization no matter what the business (farming, bombardier, etc.), however that said there is a need for a safety net for things such as natural disasters, etc. no matter what the business. This includes things like insurance, but also the government backing insurance type programs. This is a prudent investment as it provides a level of security for jobs and wealth generation in any country. I think this was the goal of CAIS, and as far as I am concerned, it is probably the best program they have designed yet. At least guys aren't growing vast acres of crop and praying that it turns out like hell so they can make a huge windfall (GRIP program).
I struggle with subsidies for business more because it lends itself to managing for greater subsidy payments. The role of any business is profit, therefore if the subsidy level ouperforms the basic returns of the sector, the best way to maximize profit is to maximize your subsidy. Right wrong or indifferent that's the way it is. In business we can't knock those who maximize profit.
Also, while we play in a worlwide market/price, it is not a fair game. We are trying to move towards fairer trade, but we also do not have initiative to move towards adding value/competition to compensate for some of our higher costs.
Certainly CAIS, and other cash flow programs have helped our town and local community. Most of that money did not stay with the original recipients for very long.
The real issue with these programs is that they don't address the real issues in agriculture and rural economies. AB in particular can take a pretty good look at states such as Colorado and see how things are changing there. I think that is to be us in 5 - 20 years. Ranchettes vs. ranches. Off farm income vs. farmers. Water use requirements. Etc. There are a whole host of issues evolving around our food and where it comes from.

[olhoss]

"There are career choices these days that were not available years ago which allow for individuals to upgrade so they can have a career that provides a higher standard of living."

I was thinking about this and wondering why it doesn't apply to farmers?

Why are farmers so special they need special protection much like the french language?

[olhoss]

<i>" think the challenge is really to run a business that works regardless of or outside of subsidization no matter what the business (farming, bombardier, etc.), however that said there is a need for a safety net for things such as natural disasters, etc. no matter what the business. This includes things like insurance, but also the government backing insurance type programs. This is a prudent investment as it provides a level of security for jobs and wealth generation in any country."</i>

Especially when administration eats up 80% of the payout. Right?

That's just the nature of gov'ts. No matter what party is in power.

Play with the devil and you have to play by his rules.

[smcgrath76]

Administration is god's gift to beaurocrats. I don't think the money is spent or administered particularly wisely, and no matter what type of "subsidy" is given in any industry, it does distort the real world. That's why there are hockey teams in Florida, Arizona and Tennessee.

[cowman]

In Canada most businesses are, in one way or another, supported by government? Thats just how it is? Despite the rhetoric even the Liberal party is very much a pro business party?
Now supposedly farmers are businessmen and not peasants or something, so it makes sense that government supports them in some manner...like every other business?
Consider this: For every dollar the farmer makes how much money is generated down the line? How many businesses rely on the products produced? How many rely on supplying the farmer with the products he needs?
If the government cut every last bit of support to all businesses what would be the result? Could you see a lot of businesses folding? Could you see a lot of janitors looking for another job?
If the businessman is a man with some capital do you think he might just take that money and put in somewhere else instead of generating jobs in Canada?
If you truly believe that this system doesn't work, what is your alternative? Is it the communist system? Well that doesn't work...so where do we go?
Capitalism is what built this country. The socialist policies that have crept in have not been helpful! They have created the concept of "entitlement" displayed by many? So the janitor feels "entitled" to a higher wage or the teacher feels she should be paid as much as the surgeon! No body is stopping either from becoming a surgeon...only lack of talent and committment! There is no shame in being poor...but it is hard to commiserate with anyone who won't take their own destiny in their hands and do something about it? We all have the ability to succeed and we all have the option to fail.

[cswilson]

Whether you agree with CAIS or not you have to compete with those who do. I have less trouble with CAIS than I do with 'sundowners' making 100 grand off farm and bidding up pasture rent and hay prices. Our tax laws that make ranching to lose money a viable option aren't that great either. Our local community is about to lose a major employer about 400 jobs many of them people who farm and ranch too-it's going to be a very interesting year coming up.

[olhoss]

<i>"In Canada most businesses are, in one way or another, supported by government? Thats just how it is?"</i>

Well no, that's not "just how it is". I know socialists say that tax breaks are, somehow, a gov't subsidy. If that were true, anything less than 100% confiscation of income is a gov't. subsidy.

<i>"Despite the rhetoric even the Liberal party is very much a pro business party?"</i>

Only in the sense of "Third Way" philosophy. Gov't being a partner in the business.

<i>"Now supposedly farmers are businessmen and not peasants or something, so it makes sense that government supports them in some manner...like every other business?"</i>

The premise is false, therefore the conclusion is false.

<i>"Consider this: For every dollar the farmer makes how much money is generated down the line? How many businesses rely on the products produced? How many rely on supplying the farmer with the products he needs?"</i>

The same can be said of grocery stores. If they were socialized, and that's really what your advocating (considering he who pays the piper calls the tune), we would all starve. Subsidies result in the recipient farming the system rather than producing efficiently according to the realities of the market.

Advocates of gov't subsidy want to live in never-never land divorced from reality. And they want somebody else to pay for that fantasy.

<i>"If the businessman is a man with some capital do you think he might just take that money and put in somewhere else instead of generating jobs in Canada?"</i>

Businessmen, first and foremost, look for an environment that allows them to do what they do best. Without interference. Free enterprisers don't first look to see what level of subsidy they can farm. Socialists such as Paul Martin might do that (more than 160 million from gov't to CSL in grants and non-repayable loans), not free enterprisers.

<i>"If you truly believe that this system doesn't work, what is your alternative? Is it the communist system? Well that doesn't work...so where do we go?
Capitalism is what built this country. <b>The socialist policies that have crept in have not been helpful!</b> They have created the concept of "entitlement" displayed by many?"</i>

Then why are you advocating more socialist policies such as subsidies?

A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:8

[smcgrath76]

A good example of a subsidy for all is health care/public education/law enforcement. This is available for all Canadians and definitely helps business. Being able to access literate employees is valuable. Look at GM in the US and their latest contracts. Anyone who thinks universal health care is not a subsidy to business is crazy. There are billions of dollars in savings to business because of health care. These are just a couple of basic examples. I am not saying that I support cash payouts to business or other forms of subsidies, but all subsidies are not bad. Some actually facilitate business and generate a positive return to the economy. If there is no point to working together on some issues then there equally is no point in having a government in the first place, even if that is just in terms of establishing law and order.
Whether or not specific programs or sectors is somewhat of a seperate issue.

[smcgrath76]

good points smgrath. Ambulance service, libraries, fire services, seniors housing are all subsidized in one form or another. Many of the above services are subsidized through a combination of property tax and provincial grants. In some remote communities even veterinary services are subsidized by the local tax base by way of property tax concessions, assistance in relocating and finding suitable locations for clinics etc.
In a small urban community hear here there was a dire need for a dentist so the local village council made a deal with a newly graduated dentist to waive property tax and sell him a village lot at a reduced price.
Is he making money today, you bet he is but he is located in a small village, where local residents have access to good dental care without having to travel for hours to obtain it. His clinic now has two full time dentists and many of the village businesses have increased profits due to the number of patients attending the clinic and stopping for a meal or to make purchases in the village.

A small subsidy for one professional has been a win win situation.

[olhoss]

http://forums.cbc.ca/roundtable/2006/01/my_name_is_joe.html

Excerpt;

As much as the well-fed eliteocracy of the left would like us to believe otherwise, the arts are an industry and profession that can manage just fine without the state. Perhaps, if we had the same expectations of self-sufficency of those in the arts, theatre, television and film as we do of any other entrepreneur or employee, they might actually create something worth paying for.

So, here's my advice to the NDP and their would-be artist welfare bums: if they aren't good enough at "George Bush - body fluid mixed media" to support themselves through legitimate private sales, they should find another occupation.

Or find a second one.

<b>Just stop demanding a chunk of my livelihood to hold their day-care spot in the Canadian culture of state-funded <u>mediocrity</u>.</b>

[olhoss]

It's so much fun to tangle leftists up in their own snarls.

<i>"In a small urban community hear here there was a dire need for a dentist so the local village council made a deal with a newly graduated dentist to waive property tax and sell him a village lot at a reduced price."</i>

lol A tax break is a subsidy? Oh, I get it, other dentists didn't get the same break. But then, there weren't any other dentists.

Reduced price for a village lot? From what? They must have given it to him because village lots are worth almost nothing.