cais

[cswilson]

Whether you agree with CAIS or not you have to compete with those who do. I have less trouble with CAIS than I do with 'sundowners' making 100 grand off farm and bidding up pasture rent and hay prices. Our tax laws that make ranching to lose money a viable option aren't that great either. Our local community is about to lose a major employer about 400 jobs many of them people who farm and ranch too-it's going to be a very interesting year coming up.

[olhoss]

<i>"In Canada most businesses are, in one way or another, supported by government? Thats just how it is?"</i>

Well no, that's not "just how it is". I know socialists say that tax breaks are, somehow, a gov't subsidy. If that were true, anything less than 100% confiscation of income is a gov't. subsidy.

<i>"Despite the rhetoric even the Liberal party is very much a pro business party?"</i>

Only in the sense of "Third Way" philosophy. Gov't being a partner in the business.

<i>"Now supposedly farmers are businessmen and not peasants or something, so it makes sense that government supports them in some manner...like every other business?"</i>

The premise is false, therefore the conclusion is false.

<i>"Consider this: For every dollar the farmer makes how much money is generated down the line? How many businesses rely on the products produced? How many rely on supplying the farmer with the products he needs?"</i>

The same can be said of grocery stores. If they were socialized, and that's really what your advocating (considering he who pays the piper calls the tune), we would all starve. Subsidies result in the recipient farming the system rather than producing efficiently according to the realities of the market.

Advocates of gov't subsidy want to live in never-never land divorced from reality. And they want somebody else to pay for that fantasy.

<i>"If the businessman is a man with some capital do you think he might just take that money and put in somewhere else instead of generating jobs in Canada?"</i>

Businessmen, first and foremost, look for an environment that allows them to do what they do best. Without interference. Free enterprisers don't first look to see what level of subsidy they can farm. Socialists such as Paul Martin might do that (more than 160 million from gov't to CSL in grants and non-repayable loans), not free enterprisers.

<i>"If you truly believe that this system doesn't work, what is your alternative? Is it the communist system? Well that doesn't work...so where do we go?
Capitalism is what built this country. <b>The socialist policies that have crept in have not been helpful!</b> They have created the concept of "entitlement" displayed by many?"</i>

Then why are you advocating more socialist policies such as subsidies?

A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:8

[smcgrath76]

A good example of a subsidy for all is health care/public education/law enforcement. This is available for all Canadians and definitely helps business. Being able to access literate employees is valuable. Look at GM in the US and their latest contracts. Anyone who thinks universal health care is not a subsidy to business is crazy. There are billions of dollars in savings to business because of health care. These are just a couple of basic examples. I am not saying that I support cash payouts to business or other forms of subsidies, but all subsidies are not bad. Some actually facilitate business and generate a positive return to the economy. If there is no point to working together on some issues then there equally is no point in having a government in the first place, even if that is just in terms of establishing law and order.
Whether or not specific programs or sectors is somewhat of a seperate issue.

[smcgrath76]

good points smgrath. Ambulance service, libraries, fire services, seniors housing are all subsidized in one form or another. Many of the above services are subsidized through a combination of property tax and provincial grants. In some remote communities even veterinary services are subsidized by the local tax base by way of property tax concessions, assistance in relocating and finding suitable locations for clinics etc.
In a small urban community hear here there was a dire need for a dentist so the local village council made a deal with a newly graduated dentist to waive property tax and sell him a village lot at a reduced price.
Is he making money today, you bet he is but he is located in a small village, where local residents have access to good dental care without having to travel for hours to obtain it. His clinic now has two full time dentists and many of the village businesses have increased profits due to the number of patients attending the clinic and stopping for a meal or to make purchases in the village.

A small subsidy for one professional has been a win win situation.

[olhoss]

http://forums.cbc.ca/roundtable/2006/01/my_name_is_joe.html

Excerpt;

As much as the well-fed eliteocracy of the left would like us to believe otherwise, the arts are an industry and profession that can manage just fine without the state. Perhaps, if we had the same expectations of self-sufficency of those in the arts, theatre, television and film as we do of any other entrepreneur or employee, they might actually create something worth paying for.

So, here's my advice to the NDP and their would-be artist welfare bums: if they aren't good enough at "George Bush - body fluid mixed media" to support themselves through legitimate private sales, they should find another occupation.

Or find a second one.

<b>Just stop demanding a chunk of my livelihood to hold their day-care spot in the Canadian culture of state-funded <u>mediocrity</u>.</b>

[olhoss]

It's so much fun to tangle leftists up in their own snarls.

<i>"In a small urban community hear here there was a dire need for a dentist so the local village council made a deal with a newly graduated dentist to waive property tax and sell him a village lot at a reduced price."</i>

lol A tax break is a subsidy? Oh, I get it, other dentists didn't get the same break. But then, there weren't any other dentists.

Reduced price for a village lot? From what? They must have given it to him because village lots are worth almost nothing.

[olhoss]

You would have to ask the residents of that particular village if they felt the decision of their council was a good one. All I know is that people in the community and for miles around are very pleased to have adequate dental care close buy.
Tax concessions are certainly a form of subsidizing a businesss.
olhoss, I don't know where you live but if its in Alberta, do you return your natural gas rebate....because it is a form of subsidy. Wouldn't want folks to think you were on the dole !!!!!!!

[cowman]

ol hoss: Not sure what your so upset about? I take it you don't think farmers should get any sort of subsidy?
If that is the case I wonder how you think the BSE crisis would have played out with no subsidy? Do you think a lot more cattle would have gone down the road at fire sale prices? Do you think a lot more farmers might have gone under and defaulted on their creditors?
Is that a good thing?
Not sure if you are living in the real world? Do you think it is wrong for a government to come in and prop up a valuable industry with tax concessions, subsidies, tariffs etc.?
If we want a level playing field maybe a company should be able to import janitors from China or somewhere and pay them $3 a day or something? Would that be fair?
You should take a look at the bottom line on some of these farms. The hourly wage might be quite a shocker? How about having a negative wage! But still paying taxes just like that janitor? If you think the farmer is getting rich on subsidies in this country...you need a reality check!
As I said before no one in Canada can say they aren't on the government tit.

[cowman]

I would be willing to venture a guess that some in some farm operations the NET income is less than that of the janitor !
And while we seem to be fixated about the janitor, I would say that if someone is not happy with being a janitor or the salary it brings, there are certainly more lucrative job opportunities out there for the asking !

[cowman]

I think another thing ol hoss doesn't appreciate is the company paying the janitors wages is probably recieving some "subsidy" on way or the other? How he defines a subsidy I don't know? Does he consider tax concessions a subsidy? Does he consider tariffs to level the playing field a subsidy? Does he consider infrastructure a subsidy? Lets face it a trucking company is getting a lot more out of the road system than Joe Blow riding his bicycle to work everyday!
The governments job is to create a climate where commerce can flourish? When commerce thrives everyone benifits including the janitor? If the government creates a climate where commerce doesn't thrive then nothing is created? No profits equals no jobs! The janitor suddenly finds himself out on the street looking for a handout to survive.
As I have said many times: There is the ideal world of the dreamer...and then there is the real world we live in?

[cowman]

well said cowman. I respect people in all walks of life regardless of the work they do. The local service station where I gas my vehicle has a number of older ladies pumping gas. One lady is in her early 60's, has always worked as a waitress or in housekeeping in the hotel industry.
She decided that she could make better money pumping gas, and after working at that job for a couple of years she told me this week that one of the customers of the service station has a vehicle dealership and has offered her the job of supervising the staff that cleans up the used vehicles etc., he did so because he has always been impressed by the way she has performed her job pumping gas !!! So someone in what may be considered a lower end position certainly can go up the ladder career wise regardless of their age if they take are good at what they do and can take advantage of what opportunities come their way.
By the way, the car dealership is located in a new business park, and is receiving some pretty good tax concessions as well as a 'deal' on utilities etc. from the local urban centre.
Now if olhoss were to hold true to his convictions I doubt if he would think the lady should accept the job because it is subsidized in a round about way !!!

Years ago we didn't have a veterinarian in our community so the local livestock producers went out recruiting one. The first vet that came here had a house provided rent free for the first year and also had his clinic taxes waived by the county.....after the first year he had his feet on the ground and had built up a good clientelle.
The cattlemen that paid his rent the first year were damn glad to have a vet in the community vs having to pay one to travel for an hour which in calving time can mean losing an animal.

There is a huge difference between subsidies and handouts. I don't favor handouts, because I think people need to be empowered to help themselves, but I do think that a level playing field helps everyone.

[olhoss]

<i>"Now if olhoss were to hold true to his convictions I doubt if he would think the lady should accept the job because it is subsidized in a round about way !!!"</i>

Now you're being ridiculous. Par for the course with those who have lost the argument before they began.