Calf size verses profit

[bward]

yes thats exactly what happened to the Hog industry, and the only edible thing left on a hog now is the bacon and the tenderloin. Chops and roasts are so bone dry and tough now.... they effectively removed the aroma, and all succulant - ness out of a pork loin roast. You can be sure that in time we will not only be dictated as to what the packers will buy from us, we will also be sourcing our breeding stock and genetics from them.

[bward]

bward, good comments. The worst possible advertising for either the hog or beef industry are the precooked prepackaged roasts, they are horrible !!!
If any consumer realized just how much they were paying for a very small amount of poor quality protein they would be shocked.
As far as carcass size goes, it would be interesting to see the input/return comparison of producing the 1400 pound steer vs the 1250 pound critter, and maybe factor in the price of feeding the 1300-1400 pound cow vs the 1800 pound ones while we are at it.

[cowman]

I would assume the feedlots know where they make a dollar? If the most profit is in a 1400 lb. steer...they will hit that target? I think most breeds have the genetics available to hit that target?
Not so sure that taste really matters anymore? Modern pork is terrible, in my opinion, as is chicken...but times change and tastes change? If all pork/chicken tastes the same then people just get used to it...probably to the point where they wouldn't eat anything that was different...and especially more costly! Not talking about niche markets but the general commodity market.
Consider how we have been led into producing what the packers desire? In the seventies they said too much fat not enough meat...we switched to lean continentals? Later they decided we needed more marbling...we all switched to Angus! A few years ago they decided Simmental cattle were a no-no...out they went!
Today Simmental cattle are acceptable again and I suspect the trend will be less Angus? And here are all us farmers trying to conform to a pattern that changes every few years!

[cswilson]

A 1250-1350 pound steer has been an acceptable harvest point since Christ was a cowboy-a British X cross cow will produce a steer that finishes 10-0-140 pounds heavier than she is if you use the right type of bull on her. The pig business became soo standardized breed wise when the pretty much went to total confinement production systems-beef cows are raised in some pretty varied enviroments-you can muddle through just about any ranch situation with baldie cows and whatever bull you wish to use.

[farmers_son]

I have given the statement “your land base can only produce so many pds of beef in a year no matter what,so why wouldn't you want to harvest that beef in smaller packages and get more dollars per pound for every pd of beef you sell” quite a bit of thought.

I checked back to last Octobers average prices for weaned calves and found that if you sold 200 400 pound calves last October you would only have had to sell 158 600 pound calves to come home with the same cheque. Actually the cheque would be slightly better for the larger calves because of a number of per head checkoffs, the bigger calves would have about a $168 total or a little over $1 per head advantage. Another way of looking at it if we aim to maximize the pound of weaned calf produced off of a given land base is that that land base can only support a given weight of cows. I calculated that if that land base could support 200 1150 pound cows then it be equivalent to support 158 1450 pound cows.

What then comes to mind is that the size of the cow is probably much less important than her ability to get in calf year after year, to wean live calves and her longevity. On our operation we place a lot of emphasis on some soft criteria like the cows have to quiet and decent to handle because we view the cost of handling man killer cows as quite high especially because I rely on my wife and children for help throughout the year as well as at calving time. Plus to the extent possible all other things being equal we like cows that are nice to look at.

A lot of ranchers in Canada are aware that they can increase their profitability by outsourcing part of their resource requirement such as winter feed instead of limiting their production to what can be grown with their available land base. While they are exposing themselves to more market risk because they now have to enter the cash market for purchases as well as sales it does work if you can buy feed for less than the cost of production on your individual operation. The ability to purchase resources off farm than opens the option of keeping 200 cows that can wean a 600 pound calf instead of 200 cows weaning a 400 pound calf.

The conclusion I draw is that cow size by itself would not increase or decrease a farms profitability and that other factors play a greater role in determining profitability.

[grassfarmer]

Farmers_son, Your analysis shows that last year selling 200 400lb calves only brought the same income as selling 158 600lb calves. Fair enough but the theory you then expounded that running larger cows is I think based on dubious math. If the rancher with the 1150 lb cows was only able to wean 400lb calves (35% of dams weight) then using the same weaning % for the 1450lb cows would only result in 500lb calves not 600lb ones. In all likelihood a ranch that got such poor weaning weights with 1150 lb cows would have a lot of lean and open 1450lb cows unless substantial extra resources were used in their upkeep.
What then comes to mind is that the size of the cow is probably much less important than her ability to get in calf year after year, to wean live calves and her longevity. On our operation we place a lot of emphasis on some soft criteria like the cows have to quiet and decent to handle because we view the cost of handling man killer cows as quite high especially because I rely on my wife and children for help throughout the year as well as at calving time. Plus to the extent possible all other things being equal we like cows that are nice to look at.
You also state "A lot of ranchers in Canada are aware that they can increase their profitability by outsourcing part of......." Shouldn't that be "can increase their operation, scale, turnover etc" can they be guaranteed to increase their profitability?
I agree completely with your statement that the cows ability to get in calf year after year, to wean live calves and her longevity are probably more important than any other factor.

[farmers_son]

Grassfarmer….I was using the market price information I had available which was for 400 and 600 pound calves. I have never been a fan of calf weight expressed as a percentage of cow weight mainly because I do not weigh my cows although I weigh my calves and the condition of my cows can vary from season to season and from year to year. For the most part when people talk about cow size in pounds they are really thinking frame size.

However the numbers I put up are subject to correction and the 1150 pound cow may well be expected to wean more than a 400 pound calf although I can picture individual herds I know of where those numbers would be about right. We both agree that cow size is not the end all when it comes profitability.

Can they increase their profitability? I guess I don’t really think so over the long term because that is not what I do. But on a year to year basis, some years it will be better. The point I was working at was there is more than one way to seek a profit in the cow business and not everyone necessarily works on a finite resource basis but outsources either winter feed, pasture, replacement heifers or even custom work.

[nlcc]

farmers-son I checked out this fellows site www.pharocattle.com If nothing else he is a super salesman. I did read as much as I could of his newsletters but have not had the advantage of hearing him speak in person. I am however of the opinion that I would not go too far these days to hear an American cattle producer speak on how to make money raising cattle when I know full well that if those SOBs had not shut out Canadian producers out from the highest cattle prices in history that I could have been making money without his wisdom. No matter what he says in his newsletters, since 2003 he has been making money at our expense and any idiot could be profitable at the prices they have had in the U.S.

Rough day today? Pharo has been profitable for a long-time before 2003

I don,t agree with everything he sayes ,but I think he makes some valid points on cow size.

[farmers_son]

I regret those comments but what is done is done. Whether Pharo was an American, Canadian or Brazillian cattle producer it should not make any difference. His advice either has value for us or it does not. Obviously BSE was not his fault and I have no idea of his views on the border closure. So yes it was a rough day when I put up that post, was doing year end books and figuring up cash flows for the new year. Hopefully my negative comments did not take away from an important discussion on cow size.

[cowman]

If you can make money with 1100 lb cows, that is good. If you can make money with 1600 lb cows that too is good? Everyone sees things differently and hey only you have to live with your choices?
Myself I prefer a bigger cow and if I am losing money by not running a bunch of little cows...well it is my nickel?
Hey if we've all made it down the road this far we just might be doing something right? We don't need to change the world.