Calf size verses profit

[redhen]

I'm wondering if the criteria for profitability should be the number of pounds of feed (grass/hay/grain) required to net one pound of meat/protein on a carcass. Isn't that what it comes down to?

[farmers_son]

Really the title of this thread should be Calf size versus cost. Profit is determined by the market, it is beyond our control.

For many producers, interest costs not to mention debt repayment capacity becomes the prime determinant of whether or not they are in business next year. The low cost producer is not necessarily the one who is business next year as deep pockets are more important in the cattle business than good cows and low production costs. You can have the lowest cost of gain and still go broke.

Other than some obvious poor cows, most have four legs, four teats and all the reproductive organs necessary to bring a new calf to life every year. After nearly 3 years of BSE I think what it comes down to is not cow size it is debt size that will make the difference. That and how much CAIS reference margin you have left.

[PureCountry]

FS - of course 'debt size' is important, but the little things like cow size can make a huge difference in repayment.

I giving a presentation at a seminar in February on Genetic and Trait Selection, and the biggest point I'm going to try and get across, is to focus on the 'economic traits' of an animal. Fertility - #1, longevity, hardiness/efficiency, those things make dollars and/or cut expenses, period. Any animal can be profitable, but some are just definitely easier to do it with, and people need to focus in on those traits.

Far too often producers look at more pounds, more gain, more production, and not enough on less feed, less work, less input. When was the last time a banker was impressed by your production? THEY ARE NOT!! If your production combined with low expenses calculates out to a number on the positive side of zero, GREAT.

[redhen]

Hi Pure Country,

So will your lecture include a look at heritage breeds with a proven genetic history of superior metabolization on marginal land? :-)

[cowman]

sagewood: I think you and I see quite a lot alike when it comes to how to raise cows. I am a firm believer in lots of straw and good windbreaks. It seems the older I get the more "quiet" becomes a dominant trait to select for! When I was young used to curse those quiet old Herford cows that went down the chute so slowly, but am not too keen on those "rockets" anymore!
I have always tried to keep my cows at a decent size...not so easy at times when you pursue a crossbreeding program? However I am a firm believer in crossbreeding. If you are raising commercial cattle and not crossbreeding you are leaving a lot of money on the table...in my opinion? Try to keep my cows in that 1400-1500 range(coming off pasture) but will admit I have some bigger than that, not many smaller.

[PureCountry]

redhen, my presentation is going to stay away from breed vs. breed at all costs. The most important traits a cattleman can select for are ones beyond breed limitations. Fertility and longevity are absolutely the most important. Of course some breeds ON AVERAGE live longer and/or are more fertile, but in every breed, we need to select for those traits.

[cowman]

Hows the heredity on those traits? My old AI instructor always said the fastest way to change the makeup of a cow herd was to select for traits that have high heredity values and cull out the low heredity problems?
So for instance body frame has a high rate of heredity at.60 and calf birth size is also high at .45? Fertility is actually listed at a rate of .00 to .005, according to the American Breeders Service AI Management Manual! Can't seem to find one for longevity, don't know whether they consider it all that important.

[grassfarmer]

Too funny Cowman - "Can't seem to find one for longevity, don't know whether they consider it all that important." "They" being the American Breeders Service AI Management Manual -perhaps they have motives other than identifying cattle that will be profitable in the longterm for ranchers?

[cowman]

Well grassfarmer I don't know? They live and die by selling semen but I would assume they would like to see their customers prosper and continue to operate? I suspect it isn't a highly heredity trait...or at least one that can be measured?
I'm not saying longevity isn't a good thing. I have one old registered hereford cow that is 17 this spring. Now she sure doesn't bring the best calf home in the fall but with BSE she just seems to hang around. In the end she'll probably die here so there will be no salvage value. Does she owe me anything? No I guess she doesn't but I'd be real happy if I could get $600 for her! Better than coyote feed perhaps?

[PureCountry]

I'm not sure what the "level" of heredity is for longevity or fertility, according to your American AI Manual, but I think they're the 2 most important traits to select for. Of course I'm not going to keep a heifer that's built like a goat just b/c her momma lived to be 19, but I don't even look at a well put-up heifer if her pedigree is full of cows who came in open and/or were culled at an early age.

As for proving which traits are more inheritable(??) than others, I've seen different studies with different results. I find it hard to believe that studies can prove these things. Think of the numbers required to prove that type of consistency, or lack thereof.

[cswilson]

Yeah grassfarmer I make sure my A'I customers use the wrong bull for their situation-works every time. I've been our companies top guy in Canada a couple times and I only market maybe 4 or 5 of the bulls in the catalogue. I find most customers respect you more if you are upfront with them if you don't agree with their choice of bulls. I'm pretty lucky I get to deal with some pretty astute commercial men-a few purebred ones too lol. Most purebred breeders who hate the big A'I units are usually pimping semen on their own bulls too which is fine -competition never hurt anyone.

[cowman]

Pure country: I'm not trying to be argumentative here but the fact is a pedigree with a lot of long lived producing anscestors might mean something...or it might not?
Who knows under what conditions those cows/bulls were raised? Probably not like you might be raising them? And who knows if they had a calf every year or were regular as clockwork with their calves?
Now maybe you have a breed that puts some serious emphasis on these traits but I will tell you all breeds don't! One of the premier lines in the Canadian Hereford breed comes from a cow that had two calves in twelve years! Now mind you those two calves were worth probably more than 100 calves in a monetary sense, but who in commercial production could afford to keep a cow like that?
I think, in commercial production, a cow needs to bring home a calf every year... no matter what. If she doesn't skid her and bring in someone who will.
Since BSE hit we've sold one cow who wasn't in calf. We've had cows who had late calves that probably should have gone but didn't because the price was a joke.
I actually don't get all bent out of shape because a cow might be late one year. She usually catches up in a couple of years anyway? I always figure it doesn't matter when a calf is born anyway...but when you sell him?