US ranchers-get real

[Horse]

Willowcreek I do have to agree with you I have said all along I dont agree with your stand but you at least are willing to stand up for yourselves and that is more than we do.

[cowman]

Not sure if R-CALF helps the American cattleman in the long term but difinitely some short term gains? Without a doubt they did keep that border closed last year with the Cebull challenge and that obviously put money in their members pockets?
A lot of what R-CALF stood for wasn't a bad thing, but I think the day when they started bad mouthing their own product was the day they stepped over the line? Hiring a lawyer who was an animal rights supporter...well what can you say!
Also their almost exclusive focussing on Canadian beef while George sold the cattle industry to the multi nationals, didn't go over well up here? Not sure how much support they have in the USA? Seems to me they are mostly confined to just Montana?

[rkaiser]

No doubt Rcalf has a few ideas that are interesting. The problem with Rcalf is their strategy. If the packer led USDA is the target, stay on target. They have been about 6 steps ahead of you all through this BSE debacle Oldtimer. Any mention that you make about Canada, or the border, or BSE, only bolsters the postion of the mutinational packer that you and I feel are challenging the producers of our countries.

If you are not protectionist, your rhetoric about Canada and your pathetic attempts to make this BSE thing into a security issue make you out to be that way.

If your goals include a better standard of living and a fair market for beef, Canadian ranchers are your ally, not your enemy.

You also have mutinational ass kissing American producers Oldtimer. And a lot more than Canada has producers in total. Look beyond Oldtimer. Or look back for crying out loud. I don't beleive that Rcalf was all that instrumental in keeping the border closed, but I certainly know that the media and the average producer in Canada does. Are you proud of that? Are you proud that your rhetoric has helped the mutinationals to now control 85% of the Canadian packing industry?

You have a message Oldtimer, but take another look at your strategy.

[Willowcreek]

kaiser- I don't really expect to sell any R-CALF memberships in Canada- but I also think that many of their beliefs are closely aligned with the Big C organizations philosophy...Big C is refreshing to see compared to the old corporation backed policies of CCA, ABP, NCBA-..The only time you see old Stan in the news is when he's trying to calm down another positive BSE find or echoing something the Packers or NCBA has said.. I'd like to see the Big C group get going...Even tho many Canadians wish it, R-CALF is not going away- in fact I look for it to expand much more nationwide with the new leadership and broader country wide and issue focus- and within the year have the largest membership of any cattle organization in the States..Big C is an open and progressive minded enough group that I think R-CALF could work with them.
Protectionist? Yeah in some ways-- I like to look at it as looking after number one first--Nobodies going to take care of you so you better look out for yourself....And one way of doing it is by promoting your own and own countries product...I think many Canadians would feel the same if they weren't so dependent on the US beef industry.....
And I don't think anyone can get more protectionist than the multinational corporations that have set up the trade laws and rules that benefit them best whichever country they are in...

[rkaiser]

So what about the problems that Rcalf is creating by spouting off about BSE and Canada in the same breath. If you could stop that for one day oldtimer, I would consider having a conversation with you. The past could possibly be left in the past(For goodness sakes, all the CCA supporters have forgiven the packers for stealing from them)if Rcalf were to stop the BSE rhetoric now.

I have no problem with stopping the packers from changing labels on beef from either side of our border.Identity could very well help producers from Canada and the U.S.

Issues like packer ownership need addressing and concentration of ownership is a problem.

BUT the crap that you guys spew about infection etc. has to stop. You have to admit that it has only aided Cargill and Tyson in Canada.

Take on the undeniable smokescreen that the USDA is working behind, but take it on with them. BSE is not a border issue Oldtimer, it is a global issue. And everyone but the producers of the world have figured out a way to make money from it.

You are not making any more money from the closed border than Cargill and Tyson are allowing you to make. They call the shots Oltimer, Rcalf is their pawn. Feed a few scraps like high cull cow prices to keep the BS flowing in the Rcalf office.

You say it's time to stand up for yourselves as producers Oltimer ----- then do it. Understand what is going on and do something for yourselves.

[Willowcreek]

kaiser- The R-CALF membership is voting on whether to continue the suit against USDA- it passed at the convention and will probably pass the entire membership vote...I personally don't/won't support R-CALF taking any further actions against the border- as long as the rules stay the same as they are...I don't think they should try for another injunction to close the border...
BUT I do support them taking action against the USDA to keep them from opening the border to OTM's and OTM beef until both Canada and the US close their feed ban loopholes and until M-COOL is put into affect to identify origin and give consumers the choice...

With this latest cow being born 3 years after the feedban, there are a lot of unanswered questions and like is being seen in the news, now even the press and public are questioning the governments and the beef industry...

[rkaiser]

Won't give up will ya Oldtimer.

BSE has nothing to do witht he border.

Keeping it closed to OTM cattle will not protect your herd. You have BSE as well.

Like beating your head against the wall; isn't it Mantiboa rancher?

[rkaiser]

I hope that you are not finished reading this thread yet Oldtimer.

I have been trying to reason without my usual decent into sarcasm, and yes I am struggling.

I notice your posts talk about the Canadian producer as a group who generally bends to the will of the Packers, and I will not argue that CCA and ABP are filled with these type of folk. However even though these groups are sucked in by the power and money of the multinationals, they do not continue to bolster their bottom line the way that Rcalf has and continues to do.

Can you say Oltimer that Rcalf's border stand has not been helpful to the Power moves that Cargill and Tyson have made in Canada (which will eventually affect the state of Montana). You may be fooled into thinking that your 50 cent culls will drop if the border opens to OTM's, but just like the price rose when UTM's started to flow, you will be shown wrong.

When was the last time you or I heard about the American plants that would have to close their doors if OTM cattle did not start making their way south? A bunch of hoey. The border issue is being used by think tanks with more experience at manipulation for money than you could ever believe. Rcalf is not holding the border closed, never has never will. Rcalf is a distraction from the real game Oltimer. And the BS that you guys are believing about extra value for your cattle is fueling the fire lit by those who use you.

Your rhetoric about BSE is silly but harmful, but don't for a moment think that it is the reason for any closed or partially opened border.

If you and some of you buds at Rcalf could see this, and stop the border crap, producers from both sides of the border could get on with finding ways to combat this manipulation and fraud.

Wow - that Kaiser is really out their you say. Like I said before, how many plants have gone under south of the line? How much more basis do the packers need now that the border is open. (Hell of a lot higher basis now than prior to BSE all things included)

BSE may have been an unfortunate event but has become the greatest event in the history of the industry for Cargill and Tyson. And Rcalf is helping in their blind (I think I'm making more money) way.

Canada was heading for more independence prior to BSE. CBEF was reporting increases in off continent exports every year. Small players were poised and even making headway in the packing and processing industry. The closed border and excessive profits made by Cargill and Tyson have not only stooped that, but reversed the situation. Talk about profiting on top of profit. Rcalf is not to blame Oldtimer, but Rcalf has been the most amazing example of usery that I have ever seen. Keep the border issue going Oldtimer, it will only make Cargill and Tyson stronger.You are being douped, and your own goals of Mcool, and legislation dealing with BSE are blinding you.

You don't' like the idea of Brazil importing into the States yet you are helping Cargill and Tyson turn Canada into the Brasil of the North. Our resource will never go away Oldtimer, we will always have cattle in Canada, and likely more than we have now. And if you keep helping Cargill and Tyson build power in Canada, your throats will be cut by your own knife.

Support the border open, leave your packer buddies out in the media cold without their whipping boy, and then work with Canadians to bridge gaps to the Asian or European consumer.

[rkaiser]

Where you at Willowcreek?

Don't you want to tell me how Rcalf had nothing to do with the gains Cargill and Tyson have made in Canada, and soon to be in the North West States as well?

[Willowcreek]

Randy- I don't know what plants closed and what ones opened...Definitely none in my area- they all closed shortly after NAFTA went into effect and the Tysons/Cargils sent all the cheap Canadian beef south...They couldn't compete.....

Much of what was being said by the Packers about the Border closure causing US plants to close was just BS and hype to try and get the border reopened..

I am friends to a couple guys that are cow buyers for the packers...They said that these slowdowns and closures, moving locations, and reopenings are every day business...They did not put any of it on the border closure...

As one buyer told me he had bought cull cows for one guy for 20 years--who has operated under 4 different company names at 5 different locations in those 20 years..Things get tight, he just goes belly up, shuts down-sometimes leaving the investors holding the bag--then goes to somewhere else and gets a bunch of govt. concessions and tax exemptions-picks up a few more willing investors and reopens- each time making sure he pockets a tidey amount...In fact as he was telling me this about 6 months ago, the guy was closing one plant in one state while he was reopening another in another state...Just part of the ripoff game they play....

Haven't you heard Kaiser- thats the business practice of today thats being taught?

[cowman]

willow creek: Might just ask you which plants closed after NAFTA? I really doubt any closed...because I doubt you ever had any? Lets face it you are basically "dogpatch"...always have been..probably always will be?
Not trying to be ugly here...just stating the truth and the facts of the matter?
In fact despite your large cow/calf numbers you can't support a large scale packing plant? It just doesn't work?
Consider this: Your nearest large packer/feedlot is in Canada? You sell feeder calves?...Is it in your best interests to alienate that market?
It is just dandy to get on the bandwagon with all the other goofy radicals, but one day the truth will hit you right in the teeth...your market might just lie in the north...with the guys who you have been calling sons of *******! Will that be an "AHA" moment?

[cowman]

Interesting to note that a friend of mine is an business person in the livestock industry. His work takes him to both sides of the border. He was at a trade show in Montana last year right in RCALF country.
He said that many of the attendees were ranchers and many of them took the opportunity to tell him they did not support Rcalf, that they NEEDED the Canadian beef in their country and as far as they were concerned the industry should be integrated.

So a question for you willowcreek, do you speak for your entire industry ???