How prevalent is this?

[sagewood]

Well all you folks are right--however, until this country values food as much as it does oil and gas, the beat will go on. People will pay big bucks for oil and gas, but ask for an increase to make ag. food a little more profitable and they scream bloody murder and site all the cases of government helping out farmers/ranchers etc. etc. Instead of calling all of these idiot government programs as 'ag. assistance', how about let's call them what they are--support for a fair price for a product that people cannot do without--I darn sure can heat my home another way if need be, and I can still ride a horse and/or walk for transportation, but by golly, I simply cannot get by without food---quality food and lots of it year round is the first need of mankind--somehow, mansions, 'toys', vehicles worth $200,000 etc. have all passed by food.

So in answer to you question about where our food will come from when all the ag. land is paved over and all the young people have moved to the city for jobs etc...we will pay some other country for importing all of our food--then watch the price increase, the quality decrease and the line ups for food will be evident across Canada--ever see news reels of Europeans lining up for food? They are not about to let their ag. industry go under--lots of them still remember what it is like to be hungry for years and what they got to eat was molded and rotten....history will repeat itself, however, it will repeat itself in Canada and not in Europe...yes, I have to have some off-farm income to keep going, but you know--I do what I can to keep the bills current, but am sticking with my hay and my cows--my first and last love as a way to make a living and enjoy my work...

[countryguy]

Excellent post Sagewood!!

[grassfarmer]

Agree with your sentiments Sagewood but the European analogy isn't quite right in my experience - certainly not in Britain although it may still exist in France and to a lesser extent Italy. Survivors of the two world wars certainly did remember the lessons of the wartime hunger and reliance on overseas food. Unfortunately the current generation of political leaders are born post war and the lessons have been lost on them - Blair in Britain is 100% happy to have zero agriculture and import everything which shapes his Ag. policy.
With the issue of importing or transporting food across the world we really should be getting smarter - it's not only a case of what happens if supply is interrupted but also a case of how much it costs to stock Canadian shelves with Brazilian / Australian etc produce. Unfortunately the politicians can only think one dimensionally and can't see beyond the $ and cents of the product on the shelf to the real financial, human, environmental and ethical cost of landing that product here.

[sagewood]

Yes, of course I am showing my age, and those I hang out with by remembering the war and the shortages of food in Europe and here in Canada and the rationing that went on even after the war...however, your point of the interruption of the transfer of food was well taken--and was mostly my point--when you cannot feed yourself, all the outside factors, such as transportation can hold you hostage. I guess they have not paved over Saskatchewan yet, and are unlikely to do so if we pave the land that supports ag. in Alberta, then we can all move to Sask. Having originally migrated from there as a child, I can attest to the fact that they have wonderful, heavy 'gumbo' soil, that on a good year will produce till the bins burst and the grazing lands are vast.

[cowman]

Actually we just keep producing more food everyday on less and less land?
It does bother me however that much of the really good land is going under pavement? Take a drive east or south of Red Deer and watch them strip 3 to 4 feet of black loam off the fields! It is really a nuisance to find a place to stockpile it. The high berm around the Red Deer dump(480 acres) is totally black loam!
Meanwhile on the poor land further east you can't grow much other than scrubby grass and brush...just no top soil and too much sand and gravel. Whenever it comes to city growth and saving the farm land you can bet the city will always win? That is why I kind of laugh when someone says it is important to save farm land...it just isn't going to happen.

[cowman]

I am faced with having to oppose an application that is coming from a neighbour whose intention is to take three parcels out of a quarter adjacent to me.
There are two feedlots within a mile of the property and putting multi-lot subdivisions and feedlots in the same area just does not work.
The municipal planning commission needs to decide whether or not they want to leave areas where agriculture can still operate without conflicts in the community.

My neighbour just sold their cowherd and have now decided they can sell off the home quarter with three subdivisions out and have enough to build a house across the road on another quarter....and live happily ever after.

Their rationale for applying for these parcels out is that nobody can make a living farming !!!!!

If one of the feedlot operators files a part one of an application for a backgrounding lot to the NRCB before the subdivision application comes in, it won't get to first base but neither of the feelot owners want to start a range war, but they are fully aware that any subdivisions approved in this area will stop any future expansion of either of their operations.
This isn't land located adjacent to a town, village or hamlet. It is 11 miles from the nearest town out in an area where there are many large livestock operations.

Where I live there are three small parcels of land within half a mile. Where it used to be peaceful most of the time there are now 8 teenagers with quads, 6 dogs and lord knows how many kids with vehicles....sometimes in the spring, summer and fall quads tear up and down the road until 3:00 AM. If I wanted to start a trucking company on my property I would be restricted to hours of operation, and most likely would not be allowed to have trucks driving in and out after midnight so as not to disturb the neighbours !!!

Saving farm land is important but more important is not creating conflicting landuses.

[cakadu]

A couple of points.... We are producing more and more of what we are having a harder and harder time selling for a decent price, let alone a good price that puts money into producers pockets.

Grassfarmer (glad to see you back posting by the way) brings up a good point about getting the food from point A to point B. I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating again and again... There are only 5 major distributors in the world. Think of the ramifications of them having total control of who gets what to eat and how much, what brands etc. If people are upset with the Monsantos of the world for the perceived control they have over the production side, then how upset are they going to be when they are at the mercy of the distributors?

I agree with emrald in terms of preserving good land coupled with the need to ensure that landuses conflict as little as possible. Acreage owners get upset by combines going late into the night, manure spreading and weaning time because that isn't what they came to the country for. The flip side of that is farmers having to deal with the types of things that emrald speaks of...kids on all kinds of mechanical gizmos riding around at all times of the day or night, sometimes disturbing livestock because of where and how they are driving etc. What recourse do we have for this? People come from the city not understanding how things work out in the country and yet they expect to be able to do things because they own an acre or two. They couldn't roar up and down city streets on quads, dirt bikes etc. so why should country roads be any different?

[cakadu]

The posts by Sagewood, Purecountry et al are great because we need to look at the social costs of all of this money flowing. Abuse, addiction problems, medical problems, psychological problems and more are on the increase, yet we don't want to spend anything more on social problems. In fact, many want to see social programs cut. We have some of the highest divorce, addiction and abuse problems going on in this land of plenty. Is that the kind of legacy we wish to leave? We have a generation that is feeling that it is entitled to everything and it deserves everything. Whatever happened to working and feeling good about what you are doing - no matter what the job is. Someone posted that we need all of these jobs to make things tick and that is very true. Someone who collects the mountains of waste we produce every week is no less valuable than the natural resource worker who is raking in big money.

The bust is going to be far more severe this time around, whenever it occurs. Credit is far more readily available, costs are pushed way beyond what is reasonable and the list goes on.

There are consequences to this boom that we don't even know about yet. How are we going to be prepared for those?

[cowman]

Linda: Its called riding the wave? You either go for the ride or you don't...either way you pay the price at the end?
I sincerely doubt we are going to move back into some "shangri la"...whatever that is...maybe the fifties?
Times change, and "stuff" happens? LOL
You deal with it? That is life?
Kids riding quads on the roads? Phone your county mountie or the real thing? Isn't that what they are being paid for?
I have thought quite a bit about this subject Of how society is changing? After all I was a kid in the sixties? Would I want to go back to those days and those simpler times? Nope I definitely wouldn't! Life is so much better in this day and age...you can't even compare it.

[cowman]

It would be nice if rural AB still had the sense of community that was prevalent back in the 60's. Now, neighbours change like the wind and very few folks even are involved in any structured community association if there is one.
When we moved to this farm one neighbour after another dropped in to welcome us to the community, nowdays if you dropped in to do that folks would likely think you were some sort of coconut !!!

When my new neighbour moved in down the road they did drop by to let me know they had three teenagers and four dogs and wanted me to let them know if any of those caused me any problems !!! I thought it was pretty classy of them.

When we moved here in '74' there were 10 cattle operations in the six miles from the county boundary and the hamlet south of me, now there are three cattle operations, one of which is a feedlot that owns a lot of the land previously owned by other livestock operations. The feedlot east of my home has bought up several of the other smaller operations so even if the land isn't individually owned by producers it is still in agricultural production, not subdivided into small country residential parcels.

[cakadu]

Never said we had to move back to some sort of simpler life - just take a look at what is happening. I personally do not want to be riding the wave of increasing social problems and having to come up with solutions.

I believe the point being made was one of two sides to the "good life" being provided by the oil patch. You can't take the good without the bad coming along. PureCountry is right - I doubt many will be on their deathbeds worrying about having spudded in that last hole. If they are, then that would have been a very poor life indeed, no matter how much money was made.

[cowman]

Well I don't believe these problems are much worse here than anywhere else? I think it is just the times we live in?
Kids and dogs and extra traffic are just something we have to live with out in the country.
Some of these kids really need some parents to keep them off the roads on their quads and motorbikes....or at the very least teach them to use some common sense? Some of these kids are riding machines that are way to powerful for their age and size? Now I don't mind kids having some fun but they really can be a hazard on the country roads...for themselves and others.

[sagewood]

Well folks, we do digress sometimes on thesse topics, but yes, the kids/dogs & loud machines are universal problems--friends in Sask. complain about the same thing--especially skidoos in the winter running through private property at all hours. But to suggest that their parents need to teach them manners etc., seems to be the entire problem...the parents have no manners and no respect for private property..so how are they supposed to teach the kids. At a hockey game recently (my 9 year old gransson's game), one young guy from the other team scored their 6th goal (our team was scoreless) and this kid came over to the area where five motheres (and a grandmother) were sitting and made a completely rude gesture and skated back to the bench. These women were cheering their kids on--had not once said or done anything when the other team scored...just trying to keep their kids spirits alive in an obvious one-sided game. The kid came over at the end of the game and apologized for his actions, but I had to ask his mother where he learned to do something like that and what type of parent would think it was appropriate. I refused to accept his apology--his gesture was way beyond just a raised finger type of gesture. Society has accepted that 'anything goes', and in fact we have laws stating 'personal rights' are protected, so until society reigns in the rudeness and teaches respect for property and others, we are going to have to raise more fences and be more vigilant as to who is on and near our land, and further to have those bylaws enforced that are in place to protect us. The times indeed are changing, and I really don't see it getting any easier for agriculture especially agrticulture that happens near urban centres and their ever-expanding base. As someone stated to me, that if I did not like what was happening then I should sell and get out--there is no sympathy for farmers/ranchers out there at all. There is no sympathy when we say our prices are too low to keep going and there is no sympathy when we say we are being restricted in what we do because of high land values around us--to most the case is obvious--take the bid from the highest bidder and move on. They do not understand a life-time committment to a particular piece of land. Then they hear the report (last week on QR77) about a farmer letting his pigs eat the dead cows, and then him saying 'we' in the ag. community all do that sort of thing and 'we' can't understand the rules even if they were explained to us--and the urban society paints all of us with the same brush and think we are all a bunch of bumbkins, polluting not only the environment, but their food as well...after a few announcements like that, most urbanites are convinced that we should all be run off the land.....but again, I digress...

[sagewood]

I don't mind neighbour kids having a good time out with their quads, snow machines etc., but when they roar around most of the night and disturb everyone else in the community then it is beyond having a bit of fun. Never mind, that some of these kids are only 10 or so, and have no business operating one of these machines on the road at any time.
Calling the county constable to complain is one thing but I am reluctant to do so in case some of these kids decide to ' get even' with me for doing so because they would know damn well it was me that turned them in.
I have already had issues with the parents of two of the kids because their dog was over here chasing cows, eating my dog's food and generally making a nuisance of himself. I called the folks half a dozen times, then one day the dog went missing, and they blamed me in so many words for it. The damn thing came back home a couple of days later so of course they likely think I had it tied up somewhere.
It is doubtful if they would take kindly to me complaining about their little darlings making noise half the night !
Lack of respect is certainly the root of many of the problems, and parents don't set an example in many cases.

[cakadu]

That is our exact dilemma here too emrald. The parents have no respect for anyone else and will not pay any heed when you talk to them. In fact one time one of the parents actually said to me that they don't want to have to worry about dogs, cars etc. when their kids are on the road. Wouldn't you think that is more than just a bit backward? Yet you can rest assured that if one of the little darlings got hit while on the road you would end up being sued so fast it would make your head spin.

Kids need to be kids and having fun is part and parcel of being one. When it becomes a safety issue for them and for others using the road, or an issue of making noise until late at night then it is an entirely different matter.

I remember one time when they had several cows on their place - bear in mind this is 4 acres - and the cows got out into the neighbors pasture. Instead of taking steps to make sure their cows didn't get out, they opened their gate because "fair is fair." How do you deal with that type of mentality?

The best role models for kids are their parents and if they won't model decent behavior then what hope do future generations have?