feeder calves

[kato]

It's true that the semen test is only the first part of it. If you look at the semen test form you will see that observation at home is the second part of the test. Even if the bull looks like he's breeding well, if he has no ammunition it ain't going to do much good.

They need to be top notch in both quality of semen and behaviour to be considered dependable.

If someone is having trouble with their Charolais bulls, I'd find a new breeder. We've had lots of good Charolais over the years that handled a lot of cows, and stayed sound. Management when young is the secret to having a bull with longevity. If you buy a bull that's been pushed too hard he's just not going to last.

Working at a vet clinic, I have seen the result of lots of wrecks involving bulls that didn't breed. Some of these are incredibly expensive. Most are the result of a lack of observation in the breeding season, and people assuming that because the bull was good last year, he's still good. We've seen bulls come in that looked like a million bucks, and produced zero sperm. Things happen, and lots of times they don't show up visually. A bull can have a fever, or an infection, and completely ruin his semen count, and not look one bit different. We've seen more than one perfectly fine looking bull come in and give a sample that's pure pus. You can't spot that without a semen test, and infections show no preference for one breed over another.

We're also firm believers in having extra bulls around. We never put just one bull in a pasture, no matter what the number of cows is. An extra yearling is cheap insurance.

[grassfarmer]

Suggested reading Cowman,
Anything by Gearld Fry, Jan Bonsma, Denis Cadzow for starters. Knowledge is power - maybe you could eventually even give up that part time oil patch job that gets you up at ungodly hours and become a real "cowman"

[kato]

It's starting to sound like Ranchers.net around here! LOL Let's take a closer look at cowman's apparently outrageous statement.

"Now I'm sure you boys will enlighten me, but my old AI instructor always told me fertility is a very low trait to select for?"

As far as commercially bought AI semen goes, I don't remember fertility beyond the ability to freeze being a criteria, so I can see the AI instructor not being all wound up about it. The product he deals with is pretty standardized.

"He further went on to state that most fertility problems were a management problem not a genetic problem?"

"Most" may not the the best word, but all the fertility in the world won't help if the management isn't there.

"And he concluded: Select for the traits that can be approved genetically and manage the ones that can't!"

That doesn't sound like such bad advice to me.

[kato]

It does seem that there are a few cheap shots being taken at cowman. For one thing, if he chooses to get up in the middle of the night to operate an oil patch related business it certainly doesn't make him any less of a 'cowman'.
Some of the best cattle producers I know have been involved in other ventures, mainly to keep the darn cattle operation going without taking on a huge debt load.

[grassfarmer]

"He further went on to state that most fertility problems were a management problem not a genetic problem?"

This to me indicates the current mindset of most in the beef industry and I think it is a fallacy. It's a creation of pseudo experts and seedstock breeders trying to pass off inferior stock to commercial buyers. Heterosis or "hybrid vigour" has no place in seedstock operations as it is a one time wonder that destroys prepotency for characteristics. Buying a bull that excels in a particular trait won't do you much good if he a hybrid or an outcross pedigree animal because he won't stamp the trait on his progeny as he has a high level of heterosis. To be able to sire progeny that are like peas in a pod, like the sire takes a bull with prepotency - by implication homozygous.
It saddens me to see the expertise of the genetic masterminds of previous generations, the people who created our great breeds, being lost by modern breeders in their race to breed paper cattle built on dubious numbers.
A statistic I read recently showed that in 1950s America 75% of fat cattle graded choice or better - today that figure is closer to 30%.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer do you think that one reason is perhaps the popularity of using hybrid bulls ? I have seen bulls sell that wouldn't have made good steers, and yet commercial cattle producers buy them and use them on their cross bred herds.

For instance,( and I am not picking on anyones breed ) if you breed a char cross herd to a simi/RA cross how will you know which breed traits will evolve?


Another question grassfarmer and it has nothing to do with the above topic, but I know you have mentioned that you are from Scotland so I was wondering if you have experience using stock dogs, most particularly border collies ?

The reason I am asking is that I had one border collie for nearly 16 years and have just purchased my second one....I love the breed and feel that they are the most faithful, intelligent dog there is. However, I am sure there are differing opinions.

I am not an expert in training dogs but it seemed that my first collie didn't need much training, she just knew what to do.

When I was growing up my neighbours, who were from Scotland, had two collies they had brought with them and they were wonderful herding dogs.

[Cedar]

Cowman: "But wait a minute fertility is a very low odds fertility trait, isn't it? "

Not so sure about that, Cowman, if one follows the cow lines down the line, especially during trying times for feed, the "cream of the crop" will rise to the top! However, I think one has to watch for the balance between fertility and milking ability as well, as it appears that the better milkers are more likely to turn up open or late in a tough feed situation! Balance things out....choose your poison!!!!

Cowman: "In fact isn't poor fertility usually attributed to poor management?"

If poor management means a lack of good feed, Then maybe.....however....if you push them a little as far as feed quality or amount (or sometimes we may be forced into such a situation)...again...the "cream of the crop" will rise! The cows who can rebreed on time year after year without being "spoiled" by the feed bucket are probably the best candidates for replacements...male or female.

Cowman: "And also don't the "experts" claim the F1 female has better fertility through heterosis? Would that also apply to the F1 bull? "

Maybe, but I betcha those benefits won't last any longer than one generation....so, if you want to keep buying replacements...please..carry on, you're doin' great!

Cowman: "Do you think the lameness thing could be due to the fact they were fed too hard as youngsters?"

Hafta wonder about that! Recently sold a bull to a guy with 2 or 3 big bulls: at first, one was lame, not too long after, two of them were lame! Hmmm....go figure!!!

Are the pounds really so important that we have to "bugger" them up right off the bat? Do these heavy fed bulls actually produce more pounds of calf? If we could just "get a brain" and quit this silly pounds game, maybe we could start to develop animals that work for us... the farmers!

Cowman: "Do Charlais bulls have a tendency to fight more than other breeds? Do Luing bulls not fight...or do they discuss things like gentlemen? "

Very funny, Cowman!!! Our bulls fight lots...definitely more than our neightbours simmies do, as she was actually kinda freaked out by the growling our boys did across the fence....apparently theirs don't do that! We, however, have very little trouble with lameness!!! I can't see where fighting has anything at all to do with lameness. I have seen our bulls throw each other right over on their backs....but no leg injuries! My best guess would be it has more to do with "over-zealous" feeding practices by some producers.

Cowman: "It must be those darned Charlais breeders selecting for fighting bulls!"

Duh...don't think so...dude...maybe selecting for a "better relationship with the feed bucket". ;-)

Have a good one.....

[cowman]

Well the point of the poem was to point out "boil and bubble"? This site was about as dead as a western Liberal! Why if I didn't have old Willowcreek to abuse on here it would be pretty quiet!
Grassfarmer: Sorry my early bird thing bothers you. I'm actually retired this winter from the oil field thing...just feeding those old cows and playing in the shop...which is nice because I can usually hit coffee row! I think though if I had to choose between being "a real cowman" or an "oil field jockey"..no contest...give me oil! As Horse is so fond of saying...You just can't beat those $1,000 a day jobs!
I really enjoy the reclamation end of it and dealing with the people in the patch. So nice to be a part of an exciting business that is rocking and rolling!
But now I have a question: In the ABS AI management manual- relative heritability estimates are as follows:
fertility .10
birth weight .40
weaning weight .30
average daily gain .50
feed efficiency .40
weaning grade .25
Would those be accurate figures in your estimation? It would seem some would question the truthfulness of the AI industry...especially considering these are evil Americans?
Also do you consider a 10% heritability trait worth pursuing? In fact doesn't natural selection pretty well rule out most duds...at least on the commercial level? Of course we all know stories of how some purebred operations are?
Another thing we might consider is this whole feeding thing? To grow a bull out to where he finds a ready market...he usually has to be pushed? Now I'm talking about the general market, not some niche type of market where the buyer finds a smaller, more naturally raised bull acceptable? And without a doubt the boys that win the shows and therefore the big money, have to push those bulls very hard?
Anyone who has raised bulls knows how it is. Try to raise them how they really should be raised...and they will be taking a trip to XL...because nobody wants them! Now maybe I am out of touch with the world on this and there is a whole new wave of commercial buyers who think differently? That might be possible? I don't attend many bullsales anymore so I don't know for sure? I did drop in at Calgary two years ago and I don't think many of those boys had been on a diet of snowballs and willow brush...if you know what I mean?
Despite all Randys' derogatory comments(I'll get revenge you old bugger) a "homesteader bull" can be raised right...because who do you have to impress? You know what his momma can do, what her udder is like, what her feet are like, how her calves grow out and yes...what her fertility is like!

[rkaiser]

What derogatory remarks retiredcowman? I was refering to those books that you and I learned how to work computers from. You know "computers for dummies". I thought you were trying to learn us something new about the cow business. "cowdummy"

This thread obviously has some miscommunication, and some of US like that kind of stuff to jump on the extreme bandwagon.

Some of your points have merit cowman, but I know that you agree with me that one of the most important trait selections when buying a bull is fertility.

I'ts 8:15 here in my morning world cowman, and you are likely about ready for lunch, but if you read this note before noon - - Have a nice day eh!!!

[rkaiser]

no no no randy, he isn't a retired cowman, he retired from the oil patch ! I suspect that his 'boy' will have him calving cows pretty soon and he will be anything but a retired cowman !!!

All I know about the fertility issue is that any bull that lies in the bush chewing his cud during breeding season isn't worth much. Whether it's a fertility trait or not, there have been an awful lot of overfitted bulls sold at bull sales that have gone out and done exactly that, so I tend to blame it on the feedbucket not a trait.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald, I don't blame the poor grading figures on hybrid bulls - I blame them on seedstock producers selling bulls that are no better than hybrids. So many big bull selling outfits have a herd of cows that they AI breed to a selection of the top EPD bulls in their breed. Theory being they can supply all customers with whatever they fancy - problem is with outcross genetics there is no predictability.

An example of the opposite is the Lents Anxiety 4th hereford herd in the US which has been linebred for over 100 years. 1n 1991 a U of Oklahoma project studied the DNA of their animals and compared it to that of the Line One herd out of Montana that had been linebred for 55 years and also with 20 sires out of that years sire summary - 10 high ranking and 10 low ranking. Looking at the alleles on the DNA strands closely they found the Lent's cattle were almost identical to each other - matched and homozygous in nearly every trait. The consistancy level ran at 90-94%. On the Line One cattle that had been linebred for only 55 years the variability was greater with a consistancy of 50-65%. On the sire summary bulls, the "elite" bulls of their day, the consistancy ranged from 2% - 37%. Enough said.
A recent TenderGene test on Lent's 8 herdbulls proved this further as they all tested GG (Homozygous)for both the SNP 316 and SNP 530 traits. The lab techs reran the tests as they thought they must have made an error as they had never seen this consistant a result before!
Fertility and consistancy may be difficult things to achieve and may not happen in one persons lifetime but it doesn't mean they aren't worth striving for.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald, on collies there is a lot of poor breeding going on too. Worst thing that ever happened to them was the "one man and his dog" TV shows. Most are selecting for the dogs that can do the little tricks seen there and are finishing up with a breed of "creepers" awaiting instruction instead of dogs with brains to think for themselves. Take a fancy show dog out on the hill to gather sheep and if he needs to be lifting a bunch half a mile away out of sight of you you'll wish you had a dog with brains. I've currently got the worst combination a heeler/collie - typical hybrid has half the brains of a purebred, wants to help but isn't always sure how to.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer, my old collie knew more than I did about herding cattle. She would bring the baby calves up every morning when the cows came in for grain, she just started doing it on her own.
When she was about two she started watching gates, and after that I never had to shut a corral gate when I was feeding into the pens. She just seemed to know where to be and what do to without any real teaching.

I watched the mother and sister of the pup I bought and they seem to be natural herding collies. I guess time will tell.

I agree with you about the breeding, it seems that many collies are bred for the dog trials and TOP DOGS type of work and aren't nearly as effective as a good all around stock dog.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I find that information very interesting, but I wonder how it might be a benifit to cattlemen trying to survive in this day and age?
Most business looks down the road three months not 100 years!
Consider this: In the hog industry it would be very hard to even find any commercial herd that wasn't a composite? Same with poultry?
Now you might not like how modern pork or poultry tastes but bottom line is the ones who survived used the composites because that is what made them the most money! Now I am sure there is some old boy raising "purebred" pigs and chickens, probably organically, and doing very well with a niche market, but for large scale commodity markets that just won't work?
Bottom line is... cheap protein!
In the not too distant future we are probably going to see a push for meat substitutes? Certainly within the next 20 years? And don't laugh... some of these products are pretty good! My oldest daughter is a vegetarian so I get exposed to some of these products and quite frankly some are better than the real thing! Of course they are expensive right now because they are a specialty product, but that won't last forever? Cheap protein.
Now if, say in twenty years, there is really not much of a market for beef(or a sharply reduced market that must compete with soy) then has all this concentrated breeding been in vain? Do you think it makes more sense to max out profits today before our industry becomes obsolete?

[cowman]

Okay Randy, you are forgiven and I won't try to get even...yeah right! LOL