feeder calves

[cowman]

Checked out the regular sale yesterday at Innisfail for an hour or two and while prices were fairly decent I doubt anyone got rich feeding cattle this winter?
It did seem lighter calves(suitable for grass) were selling well, while heavier cattle were probably a break even proposition at best?
Randy: There were a group of black Welsh calves sold there and while they looked very good they did not sell all that well, except for 7 heifers(747 lbs) that sold very well. It was kind of funny when they brough in the first bunch of steers...there were two heifers in the bunch...too darned hairy for the yard men to tell the difference! The auctioneer said the boys had better use the old two finger method if their eyesight was poor!

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, to balance that I had a visit from one of my previous customers yesterday to buy another Luing bull after his calves topped the sale (in their weight range)in Rimbey on Tuesday. The auctioneer was excited to see them enter the ring and announced them as being "real good grass cattle -look at the coats on them" The buyers obviously agreed. More importantly the owner could tell me that they were the most PROFITABLE calves he has ever sold. Without cost of production information high weaning weights or big sale prices are meaningless.

I weighed my backgrounding calves yesterday - basically the bottom half as the biggest were sold back in December. Charolais x calves weighed 30lbs lighter than my Luing xs with the difference being that more Luing calves were born earlier in the calving period than were the Charolais.
Same conditions at breeding but less fertile bulls cause me to lose weight with my Charolais.
Proof again that fertility traits are considerably more important than either growth or carcase traits for cow/calf producers.

[PureCountry]

Couldn't have said it better Iain. It all starts with fertility. I might send you an e-mail, I'm interested in that Rimbey auction. Their service and prices.

[rkaiser]

If I knew the buyer of those cheap Welsh Black Calves cowman,I would shake his hand. Some of those buyers just love it when something looks a bit different in the Auction barn and they can have a laugh as they steal them.

Had a load of Welsh Cross heifers that had to go conventional from our program in Oct. Sold them on the rail to Cargill. Or shall I say gave Cargill a bargain as they did not qualify for their grid.

16 - 17 month old heifers, born in April and May, backgrounded over winter and then moved up on feed later in the summer. No implants.
44 head - 86%AAA - three Prime
775 average carcass weight.

I guess that buyer in Innisfail got lucky hey.

Hope everyone of the farm dogs in the stands had a good laugh.

[cowman]

Well I don't think anyone was laughing at the cattle...as I said they looked good...very thick little guys...very wide over the back. I do think the buyers were a little confused or uncertain if you will? They didn't sell really poorly just under the market, and as I said the pen of big heifers sold very well...obviously going into a breeding program?
They came out of a purebred outfit out by Rimbey, I think? Seems to me it was Frosty Acres or something like that?

[cowman]

grassfarmer: Not real sure what you are saying about your Charlais bulls being less fertile than your Luing bulls?
Was their a problem with the char bulls or something? I mean do they produce less semen or something? Do some breeds produce more active semen or something than others? I've never heard of that!
Now I can understand a bull that has some problem...but are you telling me that because the bull was a Luing he had a better conception rate or something?
Now I'm sure you boys will enlighten me, but my old AI instructor always told me fertility is a very low trait to select for? He further went on to state that most fertility problems were a management problem not a genetic problem? And he concluded: Select for the traits that can be approved genetically and manage the ones that can't!

[rkaiser]

cowman???????"Now I'm sure you boys will enlighten me, but my old AI instructor always told me fertility is a very low trait to select for? He further went on to state that most fertility problems were a management problem not a genetic problem? And he concluded: Select for the traits that can be approved genetically and manage the ones that can't!"

This is one of your most astonishing statements to date cowman - If your A.I. guy was selling you semen that he was confidence would raise you terminal calves, his words were likely misunderstood by you.

Not even worth responding to this fertility stuff except to recogonise the amazement I had when reading it.

[PureCountry]

I'm sure there's some wisdom in that statement somewhere, cowman. But, isn't trait selection part of management?

[kato]

I think heredity has lots to do with it, but the variation between certain bloodlines in a breed are at least as great as the differences between breeds. I help with the testing of over 500 bulls a year, and haven't seen that big of a difference divided by breed. I've seen big differences divided by breeders though.

Some are producing consistently higher fertility bulls, but that is probably because their management is excellent, and they use bulls themselves that are above average as far as fertility goes. If we test a herdsire, and he's only average, we can count on some failures when we test his sons.

Don't blame the breed, blame the breeder.

[smcgrath76]

Agreed fertility traits generally have a low heritability, however there are a couple of important points we are probably missing. First crossbreeding has a huge impact on these traits. Second, for most producers selling weaned calves, reproduction is 5 times more important than growth and 10 times more important than carcass merit to total profitability. In other words, small heritability, but small changes can have big effects on bottom line profitability.

[rkaiser]

Kato says - "Don't blame the breed, blame the breeder."

Excellent Kato

Sean says - "reproduction is 5 times more important than growth and 10 times more important than carcass merit to total profitability. In other words, small heritability, but small changes can have big effects on bottom line profitability."

Plase take this statement to your old A.I. instructor cowman.

[grassfarmer]

Semen testing is a very limited way of assessing a bull's fertility. It can give you a % live semen but that gives no guide as to how well (or even if) he will settle cows. Capacity to work and breed cows is a totally different thing. I admit I've had my fill of Charolais - turned three good bulls out with 82 cows last year and after 10 days was down to one working bull - 2 lame, 1 as a result of fighting. Got a replacement in - by which time the sound bull had gone lame but one of his buddies had recovered enough to get by. End result a lot of hassle and expense and 10% open cows. This is pretty much the norm for Charolais and most of the other popular breeds in my area from what I hear. I heard of one guy that had eventually needed 9 bulls taken to his pasture to breed 120 cows! By my standards 3 bulls to 80 cows is overkill - Yearling Luing bulls will cover 30 cows and mature bulls will cover 45-55 cows in range conditions and will settle them in the first cycle if the cows are cycling. That is the Luing breed standard because the breed was built with fertility as it's no 1 priority. 98% conception in cows was the target and this was met and recorded way back in the early 1970s. Yet today seedstock breeders and vets in Canada say you need one mature bull per 30 cows, some even suggest upping it to 1/25 cows - I say it depends on the bull. If we select prepotent,vigorous masculine bulls of any breed we might get away from these problems. Unfortunately most seedstock producers are breeding paper cattle - picking big EPD numbers and breeding rubbish with no consistancy and no chance of imprinting their type on their offspring. The trend for "outcross"
genetics in pure breeds plays a big part but results in cattle that are no more consistant than F1's. Mongrelising among all breeds to turn them black hasn't helped - how can you expect that big black Simmy bull you just bought to imprint Simmental type on your herd when his granny was an Angus? Add that to chronic overfeeding of young bulls and then basing bull selection on results achieved under that feedlot ration and it's little wonder we are seeing so many bulls that can't breed cows under range conditions and then leave offspring that can perform on barley. Perhaps it might be smarter to just ring these bulls and keep them in the feedlot and select some real bulls from elsewhere?

[cowman]

Well that is very interesting.
Especially the part about reproduction being 5 times as important as growth and ten times as important as carcass? But wait a minute fertility is a very low odds fertility trait, isn't it? In fact isn't poor fertility usually attributed to poor management? Of how the bull was raised, how he was selected for testicles, viable sperm etc.? Or is that not right?
And also don't the "experts" claim the F1 female has better fertility through heterosis? Would that also apply to the F1 bull?
And here that darned old AI instructor was just telling me that stuff so he could sell me some darned terminal breed semen! Hey wait a minute...the only semen I ever bought off him was Sim, Hereford and Red Angus! Does that mean they are terminal crosses now? Why didn't someone tell me?
grassfarmer: I don't know why your Charlais bulls were duds? Do you think the lameness thing could be due to the fact they were fed too hard as youngsters? Do Charlais bulls have a tendency to fight more than other breeds? Do Luing bulls not fight...or do they discuss things like gentlemen?
It must be those darned Charlais breeders selecting for fighting bulls!

[cowman]

Call me eccentric but somehow reading this post has inspired me to send this little ditty:

Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
adder's fork, and blind-worms sting,
lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth, BOIL and BUBBLE!

[rkaiser]

Call whatever you like witchcraft cowman, but the statement that your A.I. instructor supposedly made is more like dumbasscraft.

Here are your words for review.

Cowdummy says -"Now I'm sure you boys will enlighten me, but my old AI instructor always told me fertility is a very low trait to select for?"

This guy had to be selling terminal semen to you cowman or he hoped that you would get out of the cow business sometime down the road. Don't tell us that you did not choose the homesteader bulls with some nuts, that you kept to follow up this A.I program you had going.

Fertility is one of the most important traits to consider when buying or choosing a bull, and you darn well know it. Just looking to stir that cauldren like usual aren't you cowdummy.