feeder calves

[rkaiser]

no no no randy, he isn't a retired cowman, he retired from the oil patch ! I suspect that his 'boy' will have him calving cows pretty soon and he will be anything but a retired cowman !!!

All I know about the fertility issue is that any bull that lies in the bush chewing his cud during breeding season isn't worth much. Whether it's a fertility trait or not, there have been an awful lot of overfitted bulls sold at bull sales that have gone out and done exactly that, so I tend to blame it on the feedbucket not a trait.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald, I don't blame the poor grading figures on hybrid bulls - I blame them on seedstock producers selling bulls that are no better than hybrids. So many big bull selling outfits have a herd of cows that they AI breed to a selection of the top EPD bulls in their breed. Theory being they can supply all customers with whatever they fancy - problem is with outcross genetics there is no predictability.

An example of the opposite is the Lents Anxiety 4th hereford herd in the US which has been linebred for over 100 years. 1n 1991 a U of Oklahoma project studied the DNA of their animals and compared it to that of the Line One herd out of Montana that had been linebred for 55 years and also with 20 sires out of that years sire summary - 10 high ranking and 10 low ranking. Looking at the alleles on the DNA strands closely they found the Lent's cattle were almost identical to each other - matched and homozygous in nearly every trait. The consistancy level ran at 90-94%. On the Line One cattle that had been linebred for only 55 years the variability was greater with a consistancy of 50-65%. On the sire summary bulls, the "elite" bulls of their day, the consistancy ranged from 2% - 37%. Enough said.
A recent TenderGene test on Lent's 8 herdbulls proved this further as they all tested GG (Homozygous)for both the SNP 316 and SNP 530 traits. The lab techs reran the tests as they thought they must have made an error as they had never seen this consistant a result before!
Fertility and consistancy may be difficult things to achieve and may not happen in one persons lifetime but it doesn't mean they aren't worth striving for.

[grassfarmer]

Emrald, on collies there is a lot of poor breeding going on too. Worst thing that ever happened to them was the "one man and his dog" TV shows. Most are selecting for the dogs that can do the little tricks seen there and are finishing up with a breed of "creepers" awaiting instruction instead of dogs with brains to think for themselves. Take a fancy show dog out on the hill to gather sheep and if he needs to be lifting a bunch half a mile away out of sight of you you'll wish you had a dog with brains. I've currently got the worst combination a heeler/collie - typical hybrid has half the brains of a purebred, wants to help but isn't always sure how to.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer, my old collie knew more than I did about herding cattle. She would bring the baby calves up every morning when the cows came in for grain, she just started doing it on her own.
When she was about two she started watching gates, and after that I never had to shut a corral gate when I was feeding into the pens. She just seemed to know where to be and what do to without any real teaching.

I watched the mother and sister of the pup I bought and they seem to be natural herding collies. I guess time will tell.

I agree with you about the breeding, it seems that many collies are bred for the dog trials and TOP DOGS type of work and aren't nearly as effective as a good all around stock dog.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I find that information very interesting, but I wonder how it might be a benifit to cattlemen trying to survive in this day and age?
Most business looks down the road three months not 100 years!
Consider this: In the hog industry it would be very hard to even find any commercial herd that wasn't a composite? Same with poultry?
Now you might not like how modern pork or poultry tastes but bottom line is the ones who survived used the composites because that is what made them the most money! Now I am sure there is some old boy raising "purebred" pigs and chickens, probably organically, and doing very well with a niche market, but for large scale commodity markets that just won't work?
Bottom line is... cheap protein!
In the not too distant future we are probably going to see a push for meat substitutes? Certainly within the next 20 years? And don't laugh... some of these products are pretty good! My oldest daughter is a vegetarian so I get exposed to some of these products and quite frankly some are better than the real thing! Of course they are expensive right now because they are a specialty product, but that won't last forever? Cheap protein.
Now if, say in twenty years, there is really not much of a market for beef(or a sharply reduced market that must compete with soy) then has all this concentrated breeding been in vain? Do you think it makes more sense to max out profits today before our industry becomes obsolete?

[cowman]

Okay Randy, you are forgiven and I won't try to get even...yeah right! LOL

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, "most businesses look 3 months down the road not 100 years" - how true of most cattle breeders, it's all about fashions and fads. The average seedstock herd in the US is 7 years old, too many amateurs!
It's because I don't intend to go the way of the poultry and hog industries that I am looking to breed different genetics. These sectors have the supposed "efficiency" we are told we all need - yet in reality they are turning out a consistant but poor quality product under factory conditions and making little or no money doing it.
It is clear the beef industry faces the same fate - feedlots factory farming animals that are fast growing, tasteless and full of "bad" fats. Again there is little or no money being made by producers.
So rather than accept that "efficency" will dictate that we all breed hybrid genetics bought from IBP or Cargill in the near future to supply their feedlots with feeders I will fight like hell to oppose this at every opportunity. "Cheap protein" is not what consumers are getting by buying beef just now they are getting consistant, but poor quality beef at a relatively high price.
Why not aim for a truly high quality product, one that is tasty as well as healthy and you might be surprised how much people will pay for it. Lack of disposable income is not a problem for the vast majority in N.America.
The soy alternatives may attract some but I doubt it'll catch on - consumers will always want a good old steak like they used to buy. How much does it cost to produce soy beef anyway? start with Monsanto RR soya, fuel costs, machinery etc etc - is it going to be cheaper or more sustainable than beef produced off grassland? Commodity production of beef holds no prosperity for beef producers - too much of the production chain is controlled by corporate entities. Think outside of the "commodity" box and the sky is the limit.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I do understand your point of view and find it an interesting concept. And I don't know what it costs for "soy beef"? Right now you would definitely pay some sort of premium for any "vegetarian product" but I suspect that is due to marketing a niche product? I haven't tried any vegetarian beef replacements other than hamburger. The veggie burgers are actually quite good and the vegetarian poultry version is better than the real thing, in my opinion! It is often hard to buy these products except at a specialty store? There is one such store at the seventh day adventist college in Lacombe.
I do suspect the vegetarian movement is growing significantly in the younger generations? And in reality it should be as the concept is pushed in the schools and generally by the health industry? Of course there will always be a wealthy affluent number of people who want that good old tasty steak but I think there will be fewer of them in the future?
Myself personally, I can hardly abide a "modern" pork chop...seems they always taste and smell like a hog barn! And modern poultry isn't much better. But I do love a good steak.

[cowman]

cowman, I'm with you on the taste of pork chops, and many other cuts of pork as well.
I bought one of those fancy name brand pork roasts that you cook in minutes, it was horrible, the dog had a good feed that day and I was worried about her health afterward. I think there must be something in the way pork is fed or processed that has taken away the flavor.

[cswilson]

But isn't the Luing breed itself a cross between some others way back when-so it essentially started out as a breeder tinkering with hybrid animals. As for running down a breed after one summers experience be careful because what goes around comes around-there's lots of Charolais bulls that will breed a pile of cows and I imagine there's the odd Luing that won't. The best breeding bull I ever owned was a South Devon-does that mean the breed is inherently better breeders-probably not-not this particular individual sure knew his stuff.

[rkaiser]

I'll second that Mr. Wilson.

[kato]

Yup..

As for the pork, yuk. We used to raise a few pigs, and pork chops never tasted like the ones you get from the store now. Modern hogs are incredibly young when they reach market weight. They never see daylight, and they are pushed hard. I just don't think they have time. Anytime I cook a pork chop now, it's with a ton of garlic, or barbeque sauce.