Can you live on this???

[cowman]

Not quite sure why I am "whining" when I point out that for the majority of producers cheap calves don't work or that to survive you need some sort of reasonable return on your investment? Or if I have an opinion why a certain type of cow won't work for me? I guess everyone has to toe the line on these type of questions and go with the self proclaimed experts on here?
I also find it ironic that people like to bash anyone who supplements their income with anything beside good old down to earth agriculture...while running a seperate business on the side!
Hey kids cost money. They need all these things like recreation, good dental care, an education! When I was young the figure was $100,000 by the time you got them through 4 years of post secondary education? I suspect it is a lot higher now.

[cowman]

cowman, most farm kids in this community have either worked at summer jobs through high school, saved their 4-H steer money, gotten scholarships or a combination of the above to put themselves through their four years of post secondary education with very little help from Dad and Mom.
As far as anyone being envious of Albera ranchers wealth and opportunities I will put a different slant on one of the 10 Commandments on this beautiful Easter Sunday morning.

'Thous shalt not covet thy neighbours wife, NOR HIS OIL REVENUE or off farm income'.

If an individual is content with thier one life the should not feel the need to be envious of anyone elses !!

[roly]

Hello KPB
Is this include food TV personal living costs and eny loans

[kpb]

roly, all those things have to be taken off the net figure, no doubt. Also any land payments you might have to make.

At the risk of being told I'm whining, I'd like to say that the numbers I post don't come out of thin air or from black magic. The cost numbers I used weren't my own--they were an average of three guys who post here and look to have a good degree of cow experience. And if you don't like the numbers I used for revenue, than use your own price assumptions.

To say that you can make these numbers say any old thing you want to prove a point is absurd. The numbers don't lie--it's just simple math. I make my living, and support my family, just through the ranch. No off-farm job, no off-farm income, my wife doesn't work, we have five kids, one of whom has left home and another who is here only during the summer (he plays junior hockey in the winter).

Yes I've been lucky with my Alberta land going up in value. But that doesn't help my cash flow unless I sell it. So what I'm trying to do with these posts is find a way for all of us "serious" producers to make a decent living. Like grassfarmer I do believe it can be done.

Is that whining? Geez, I don't make up the numbers--they're real, folks, whether you want to admit it or not. You know if you want to just keep on doing what you're doing, without thinking about where you are, than some day reality is going to come up and bite you in the butt.

kpb

[kpb]

topper, there are many businesses in Alberta, the agricultural industry included that are having problems accessing good help due to the fact they must compete with wages paid by the petroleum industry.
For the worker that is a good thing, and more power to them.
It is too bad if people are begrudging others the opportunity to make a good living while the opportunities exist.

Comments like 'rigpig Daddy's, were uncalled for and certainly don't take into consideration that those "Daddy's" likely are paying a whack of income tax, buying agricultural products, taking their kids to MacDonalds ( when they get a weekend off that is !), and supporting the agricultural industry in a round about way.

Attitudes need to change between urban and rural but for godsakes if rural people are going to envy one another and stoop to namecalling then perhaps our industry doesn't deserve the support of our fellow Canadians.

[grassfarmer]

Yeah, it's kind of like calling producers that don't choose to use chemicals "back to nature bright lights" or people "poor beggars" because they didn't buy feed from someone who likes to spray their crops. I smell hypocrisy.

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer as usual you are trying to make me look like someone who has it IN for your chosen way of farming. I did NOT refer to you as a 'bright light', and my reference to the 'poor beggar' was because he was stuck with hay full of tansy that had been seized by the county to avoid any spread of weeds which could have cost his neighbours calf losses due to abortion had it gotten into their fields. The reason he was a 'poor beggar' was because he was out the cost of 43 bales of hay at $65.00 per bale. My reference was not calling you or anyone a name as derogatory as referring to dad's that work their ass off to make a living 'rigpig Daddy's. No matter how you try and spin it that was a very low class remark and I am shocked that you would attempt to excuse it !!!!

[grassfarmer]

Emrald, I was just pointing out that many of the contributers here, myself included, on occasion mock other peoples ideals, beliefs and ways of doing things. I don't see why this particular comment about oil field workers should be targeted.

Cowman and others choose to call people that don't use chemical sprays "tree huggers" and "back to nature bright lights" sometimes. I consider those just as offensive but don't choose to highlight them.

[grassfarmer]

Maybe the fact that my late husband, my two sons and my grandson all worked or are working in the oil industry. Working in the industry 18-20 hour days back in the early days of both the Pembina and Swan Hills oilfields, and in later years Rainbow Lake etc. gave us a good standard of living, but also meant that I raised two boys by myself most of the time. Being away did not mean that their Dad was any less caring or concerned about his children than the stay at home farm dad who lived on the edge of town. Both my sons have spent time working away from home, one in the Middle East the other on rigs, yes, he was a RIG PIG DADDY back a few years ago.
He now has a consulting company, and makes some of those horrible, obscene high wages that some folks take aim at quite often. He has lost a daughter to cancer, his Dad and no matter how much money he makes his life will never be the same. He loves the drilling side of the industry and takes enormous pride in the fact that he plays by the rules, ensures the safety of the men at all times and treats every farmer he deals with, with respect and courtesy.

He worked for five months straight in the east central part of AB., and some in Sask. The crew on his rig were ALL Sask farm boys and young married me, who needed the income to survive on their farms. I can assure you that if anyone would have referred to them as RIG PIGS he would have shown them a taste of his mothers Irish temper !! Like I said he respects the farmers on whose land the drilling takes place and he also respects the people who do the work on the rigs.

I have a young grandson who started out driving tank truck, then graduated to a wireline company. We all encouraged him to to go college, take an apprenciceship etc., but a wife and baby by the time he was 19 made it neccessary for him to get out and bust his butt to make a living for them.

He now has a ticket in something to do with wireline, and is going to school again in a month. He, like his Dad and Granpa before him loves the oil patch, and enjoys the lifestyle it can afford. He works from 5:30 AM to midnight some days, but on his days off, where is he ? He is at home looking after his babies, and hates to spend even a day away from them....so the oil patch has produced a few good Dad's, the men in my family are but just a few of them.

I know that the industry allowed our family to get set up on a farm debt free which likely made things easier for us than many farmers, but the work hasn't been any easier I can assure you. I am involved in the agriculture industry by choice not necessity, I feel and always will feel that farmers are more genuine than anyone else, but I do give credit to the oil industry and the men and women that have lived and worked in it.

[grassfarmer]

Maybe the fact that my late husband, my two sons and my grandson all worked or are working in the oil industry. Working in the industry 18-20 hour days back in the early days of both the Pembina and Swan Hills oilfields, and in later years Rainbow Lake etc. gave us a good standard of living, but also meant that I raised two boys by myself most of the time. Being away did not mean that their Dad was any less caring or concerned about his children than the stay at home farm dad who lived on the edge of town. Both my sons have spent time working away from home, one in the Middle East the other on rigs, yes, he was a RIG PIG DADDY back a few years ago.
He now has a consulting company, and makes some of those horrible, obscene high wages that some folks take aim at quite often. He has lost a daughter to cancer, his Dad and no matter how much money he makes his life will never be the same. He loves the drilling side of the industry and takes enormous pride in the fact that he plays by the rules, ensures the safety of the men at all times and treats every farmer he deals with, with respect and courtesy.

He worked for five months straight in the east central part of AB., and some in Sask. The crew on his rig were ALL Sask farm boys and young married me, who needed the income to survive on their farms. I can assure you that if anyone would have referred to them as RIG PIGS he would have shown them a taste of his mothers Irish temper !! Like I said he respects the farmers on whose land the drilling takes place and he also respects the people who do the work on the rigs.

I have a young grandson who started out driving tank truck, then graduated to a wireline company. We all encouraged him to to go college, take an apprenciceship etc., but a wife and baby by the time he was 19 made it neccessary for him to get out and bust his butt to make a living for them.

He now has a ticket in something to do with wireline, and is going to school again in a month. He, like his Dad and Granpa before him loves the oil patch, and enjoys the lifestyle it can afford. He works from 5:30 AM to midnight some days, but on his days off, where is he ? He is at home looking after his babies, and hates to spend even a day away from them....so the oil patch has produced a few good Dad's, the men in my family are but just a few of them.

I know that the industry allowed our family to get set up on a farm debt free which likely made things easier for us than many farmers, but the work hasn't been any easier I can assure you. I am involved in the agriculture industry by choice not necessity, I feel and always will feel that farmers are more genuine than anyone else, but I do give credit to the oil industry and the men and women that have lived and worked in it.

[cowman]

I think most farms have a history of sacrifice somewhere along the way?
My old man never inherited the farm, he started from scratch although he farmed beside his brothers and father. And thats all he did...farm.
He fed cattle, raised purebred bulls, raised hogs, milked cows, grew seed grain and grass seed. He did it all on borrowed money and money him and my mother saved when he was in the army. Farmed his whole life as a cripple from 20 years old. Was an avid hunter and we never knew what beef or pork tasted like! And he died a relatively wealthy man.
Times change, times are different? Very difficult to make a go of it these days, even if you inherit it or marry it! But I do believe if you keep your nose to the grindstone and don't get carried away with debt you can make it! Probably not with traditional agriculture though.

[kato]

Everyone is talking about the disaster of 80 cent calves. That all depends on how you look at it. If calves dropped to 80 cents we'd be out buying calves. We've been through enough cattle cycles now that we have learned there is a real sweet spot at the bottom for anyone with enough nerve to stick their neck out. The bottom of the cattle cycle is what has gotten us through many a hard time. Prices have only one direction to go, and that's up.

One of our best deals was way back in the late 70's when we bought some calves for about 40 cents a pound, and sold them for over 90. Then there were the $350 dollar heifers we bought who grew up to wean $900 dollar calves first time out. There have been bunches of backgrounded calves who made us over $200 dollars each, clear, after only 100 days on feed.

Our worst results backgrounding calves have been when prices were high. That's the time the cow herd kicks in, and we stay back from the feeders.

It's all in the way you approach things. One man's idea of a disaster is usually another man's idea of an opportunity.

[greybeard]

Good points Kato. I think you point out that the lows don’t last long as they are soon looked at as opportunities. You need an understanding banker that you haven’t abused to bad in the past to help you through those times. But indeed, some were more concerned with collecting than lending on cattle when calves were at terrible prices 2 years ago in the darkest days of BSE.

[greybeard]

kato your points make a lot of sense for anyone who has a backgrounding operation, but many cow/calf operations aren't set up with facilities or manpower to handle extra calves so they would not be able to take advantage of the low price to stock pens.

[cowman]

Well I think anyone who owned calves in 2005 and grassed them did very well? They weren't worth very much in the spring of 2005...but very good by fall?
I had about 60 head...which doesn't mean I was on the ball or something...I have about that number every year...including this one!...where I will probably lose my shirt!
One year you win...one year you lose...probably not the smart way to do it?
Now I get a wee bit leery of trying to guess the market? The only times I have tried I ended up calling it all wrong...or so it seems! So I do the routine and hope and pray a lot! LOL