An efficient producer?

[coppertop]

the entire milk pricing system is under review and dairy farmers may find themselves at the mercy of the marketplace just as the beef farmer is, if things change.

[farmers_son]

Well I did not intend to open a debate on supply management. Whether or not we “screwed up” by not going the supply managed route with beef cattle is neither here nor there. We went a different route and there is no going back.

I think Cowman did raise an interesting point when he said we cannot compete with guys like this. Which raises the question of who do we compete with. I believe Grassfarmer is incorrect when he says we can all exist. Obviously there is a trend, even a government policy, towards fewer and fewer farmers. So we are not going to all exist and some of us are already going the way of the dodo.

Coppertop: The milk pricing system is under review but by whom. By the politicians that is who. As long as the dairy industry is important in politically influential areas of the country and the cow calf/beef industry is not then we should not be surprised by the outcome of such reviews. Like it or not in Quebec the dairy producers are influential. In Alberta the packers are influential and producers are not. So maybe that partly answers the question of who do we compete with. We compete with other lobbies for a competitive advantage from government, a chance to survive if not profit. As witnessed by the declines in primary agriculture and the boom in the oil sector, the dramatic profits of the packing industry and continually increasing value for dairy and supply managed quota we can see who has been competing most successfully.

[cowman]

Grassfarmer: I wasn't saying supply mangement as such was a bad thing? When I said the government screwed up, I was talking about the system where the "quota" became more valuable than the cow and became a commodity? So today we approach a $35,000/cow, piece of paper to own "quota"! The fact is this real assett called a "quota" was created out of thin air and cost the original owner zero dollars? Instead of being allowed to buy and sell quota, it should have been when you quit dairying the quota reverted to the government and gone back out to someone else?
Now this high priced quota is very good for the original farmer...not so good for the young guy wanting to go into dairy? The young Canadian wantabe dairy farmer can't get a start? So instead our dairy industry has been overtaken with wealthy Eurobucks? How many Canadian dairy farmers are left? Ultimately we have to ask....was this good for the Canadian farmers?
This whole scenario is being played out all across Canadian agriculture? The "native sons" if you will, cannot afford to compete with wealthy Europeans coming in and out bidding them on land? Are the Europeans better farmers?...doubtful...you don't have to be all that good when you have more money than you know what to do with!
Now this is not a bash on European farmers. After a few years they usually get it and start to fit in and realize farming over here isn't all its cracked up to be! And I guess we should all realize we are in reality all "European farmers"...just some have been here a little longer?

[grassfarmer]

Would you care to explain this one Cowman? "Are the Europeans better farmers?...doubtful...you don't have to be all that good when you have more money than you know what to do with!"

[cowman]

If you have all the money in the world you can look pretty good? You can afford to do things others can't...whether cost effective or not?
For example you want to raise the best crop in the country go out and pound the inputs to it! It will look very good...even though you may lose money on it!
You want the best calves in the country? Don't spare the genetics, facilities, feed or hired help...and you will ring the bell at the sale every time! Of course you might not make any money.
Consider this: A Dutch dairy farmer comes in with millions and builds a showplace? Meanwhile old Johnny Canuck is trying to figure out if he can put some siding on the barn or maybe only buy a few cans of paint! He has to make his living milking cows...not so his wealthy Dutch neighbor?
The same could be applied to other "playboys" besides the Dutch dairy farmer? How many of the big purebred outfits here are owned by guys who wouldn't know which end of the cow to feed...and really couldn't care less if they made a dollar?
Now I might have to classify my ownself as a "playboy"...although I am a darned poor one!

[farmers_son]

I do not know if it is just a matter of money. The Europeans come to this country with a different attitude than a lot of us who have been here for a few generations. They value land more than we do. They see farming as a viable way of life and if it is a matter of staying in Europe and not farming or coming to North American and being able to farm then they will leave friends and family to come here. It is my impression that there are way more and better opportunities for advanced education revolving around practical agriculture in Europe than there are here. Yes the EU has subsidized its producers which even if that got capitalized that capital is available to buy into a farm here. We should not however assume that a lot of those new ventures in Canada are not financed in some way or another and it is my impression that the Europeans are very comfortable with a financing term that is much longer term than we Canadians are. It is also my impression that farmers are important in Europe and the European immigrants who come here bring a sense of self worth with them.

[grassfarmer]

Very good post farmers_son. The point about further education in agriculture is certainly true of the Dutch - I find their knowledge of soil science for example is very comprehensive. Unfortunately in the UK we don't have the same level of agricultural education. Where you say that farmers come from Europe with a sense of self worth because farming is important, I would argue slightly. The WW2 and post war food shortages certainly gave us an important role but that has fallen by the wayside. Farmers are seen as less important in Europe now than are farmers in Canada in my opinion. However the European producers have the memory (or inflated ego) of being important in the recent past and that is what drives many to want to continue farming.

Cowman, It was the "....when you have more money than you know what to do with!" part I was questioning.
What makes you think we have more money than we know what to do with? Does the typical Alberta producer have "more money than he knows what to do with" because land here is making $2000 an acre versus $250 acre in Saskatchewan?

[coppertop]

I tend to agree with cowman on this one, although I do know many dutch folks that have come to this country and been very progressive operators, and blended well in their communities.

Some municipalities are really having problems because there are so many european farmers buying up the land and building confined operatations which in themselves aren't the most popular thing in the community, much less when the buyer can afford to plunk down cash on the barrelhead for land that the people who have lived and worked and built the community for generations cannot begin to afford.

It takes balance as with anything else.

[blackjack]

...the difference i see between the new european farmer than the old european guys is they have realised in farming they had to stick together as a one unit...i went to ag college with some of the next generation guys from feedlot alley and and some of the dutch from west of lacombe...i remember one them telling me if the first generation can't pay the debt the next one will...another thing while some of us what i guess you would call native sons were out drinkin beer most of them were on the books...lol...

[blackjack]

...i think maybe coppertop that it justs frustrates grassfarmer to watch is neighbors do the same bad managing practises year after year ...but would you not have to admit as we did just over a short 100 years made a different kind of farmer move his butt and his community... maybe i am looking at this from the wrong angle as what we like to claim as our turf...but either people learn to adjust or you will be pushed out...in my opinion if we have problems out on the farm we have no one to blame but ourselves for voting in politicians that could have made up different rules...