Green keepers

[coppertop]

seems that you were the one that commenced this post by criticizing some of your neighbours for having cattle out on grass...which is their management decision.

[whiteface]

I'll give you a positive reason for turning the cows out onto a quarter in April...
Bloat.
If they are turned out "early" before the grass is really in good shape, they get better conditioned to handle the grass (meaning their gut) before it gets really potent and full of sugar and they're just raring to go haveing been locked up that much longer. If cattle are given the chance to work themselves into the grass slower rather than just being turned out all at once into a foot or more high later I promise you will have far fewer digestive upsets. More management with feeding, less management with medications and death loses. I totally believe that I am living proof that cattle can be "trained" or "conditioned" to handle very high amounts of "hot grass" and still do well without fear of dropping dead. Hope that works for you grassfarmer, I have more but don't especially want to sound like a know it all because I still learn lots everyday too. Have a good night all!

[grassfarmer]

Thanks for that Whiteface, I don't graze pastures with a high enough density of legumes to have bloat problems so that wouldn't be a consideration on my place. Certainly the gut takes time to adjust from a hay ration to a grass ration and cattle turned from one to the other have a tough few days before the rumen bacteria get geared up. Grazing banked grass allows for this transition quite nicely. Isn't bloat caused more by the protein levels of grass versus the sugar levels? The younger the grass the higher the protein.

[cowman]

Now I'm no expert on this stuff, but I can't remember ever having any bloat problems or upset stomachs with any cows on grass? Well other than when they got into an alphalfa field years ago!
The boy is very high on meadow brome. Thinks it is the real deal after he went to see this guy west of Penhold who is rotation grazing 100 acres.100 pairs on 100 acres. This guy figures if the grass is all one species the cows won't pick and choose where to eat. And I have to admit the guy has a system that seems to work. One pair an acre for 5 months and then into the rye fields where he has already taken off a silage crop. John Elliot is his name.
Personally I thought his calves were sort of a bunch of scrubby little buggers, but I guess that had more to do with the type of cattle than the system.

[rkaiser]

John's a thinker cowman. I know the guy and would ad that he is a working fool as well. Innovation in grazing is great stuff and we can all learn from guys like John. Sure would be interesting to know who this cowman guy is.

I think whitey has a decent point and I would like to add to it. We all know about something called foot cracks or sand cracks. Stress causes these things as much as anything, and the stress I am refering to is that brought on by abrupt shifts in nutrition. Probably the best way to avoid this abrupt shift is the route grassfarmer talks of with banked grass grazed in late April and May with the new shoots. The second best way may be the Whitey way where we offer ample feed while sacrificing a paddock with little cover and some tantalizing new grass.

Every one of us knows what grassfarmer was refering to when he started this thread and every one of us knows that chucking 50 cows out on an 1/4 section of land that was already pushed to the limit last year is a recipe for disaster.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, I agree on the meadow brome it's a great grass for this part of the country. I would question the guy grazing straight meadow brome though. To get that kind of output with no legumes will entail a lot of expensive fertiliser I'm sure. Nature abhors monocultures and this is not a longterm plan. Mother nature will fight back by trying to introduce diversity and complexity to the pasture which could mean "weeds" or other grass species that pre-existed on the pasture. A pure crop of any type will not remain pure without resorting to expensive and destructive chemical sprays.

[cowman]

Well grassfarmer I'm not real up on his setup(only visited it once) and it seemed to me the darned fescue was moving in pretty agressively! He fertilizes to a soil sample and says the requirements are dropping every year.

[cowman]

Also grassfarmer I was not real impressed with his watering system. An alley way down to a boggy area where he had a solar pump and tank. It was quite a mess to say the least!
We are not super pleased with our own system as we had some problems with the float valve on the plastic tanks. Cows are always rubbing it off and making a mess. Sort of a cheap junky float valve in my opinion! I think a metal tank and sturdier valve might be better.

[grassfarmer]

What type of valve and tank do you use cowman?

[cowman]

Now I'm not real sure of the name of the valve but will check it out. Just a cheap plastic thing we picked up at UFA...seems to me it was about $20. Tank is a 500 gal. black poly and valve screws on to the side. Added a couple of extra set screws.

[grassfarmer]

Holy crap that's a big trough cowman, does one trough water 4 fields(ie at the corner)Assuming you use 1 inch line off your regular water supply I would have used a lot smaller trough. We use 40 gallon Tuff brand troughs mounted on a wooden sledge(can't weld)with a hudson valve. We find that works fine for 120 pairs especially if they are in a 2 acre paddock - cows come and go all day drinking rather than trailing to water as a bunch Hudson valves are very trouble free and cow proof. Only problem we have had is when a mouse got in the pipeline over winter and the fur blocked the filter. A screw on valve at $20 sounds more like these kind that you run off a low pressure garden hose.

[grassfarmer]

Oops!! there was a typo there - we use a 140 gallon tank.
One day a year I hate my pasture pipeline - the day I turn it on. Spent the afternoon today repairing leaks in one section of buried pipe. Every spring we get this trouble which I think stems from one roll of bad pipe. We usually get about 4 bursts a year. It must burst on freeze up because once you get the system up to pressure and no leaks it runs fine all season. I would never shallow bury pipe again -far prefer it on the surface.