questions for grass farmers, ie grassfarmer

[tman]

I would like to hear some things that you guys are doing to graze as much as possible. I've read grassfarmer's post under rural issues, sounds like you accomplish it through rotation, etc. I'm from south central Manitoba where the fields during the winter are covered with a few feet of hard, crusted snow, cows aren't let out to pasture until May long weekend, and are fed starting in October, give or take. Some old timers, my dad included, always put down new ideas, such as bale grazing. Last year, our first cut was garbage after several rains, but the second cut was ideal. I thought it would have been ideal for the cows to "graze" the bales right where the baler left them. I'm sure the cows would have battle through the snow to get to that great tasting hay, much better than cereal straw. I've noticed that by letting the cows out in May, the grass gets away and heads out. I don't consider that wasted grass, but not the most effecient use of it. I think we could easily graze sooner and go with smaller pastures and rotate them more often.

[grassfarmer]

tman, You have got to work with what's right for your area and climate. One opportunity that most producers out here miss is the potential to spring graze cattle. In their enthusiasm to extend fall grazing by swath grazing oats or grazing corn they are devoting time to growing alternative feeds to use at a time of year when a cows needs should be at their least. I would rather save grass by banking it for April use and feed straw in November or December if I had to. I don't know when you normally get snow cover for the winter but I'll bet it is usually gone before the May long weekend. Banking grass for use in April/May gives you a feed source at a time of year when nutritional needs are highest. For us it is the ideal system as it allows our cows to calf out on a dry bed away from the corrals without the daily disturbance of feeding them with a tractor. This year we grazed old grass from April 3rd on, May 18th was the first day they grazed all new grass although from about May 5th there was a good percentage of fresh green in their banked grass. This seemless transition from old forage to new is supposed to cause less stress on the rumen and prevents sandcracks on their feet.
I agree you aren't wasting your grass that heads out early - as Don Cambell says once you've grown grass it's impossible to waste it. You are wasting potential for more growth though. This is our cows only job between May 18th and July 10th - cover as much land as possible and crop it before it heads out. Once it has this setback the plants next attempt at forming seedheads takes a while and usually results in a good leafy regrowth right into fall. We do let one block a year go to seed by grazing it first and then leaving it to grow for the rest of the season - this allows some natural reseeding and a thickening of the stand.

[gaucho]

There seems to be this thought that the only grass cows can eat has to be green and when its stopped growing its done. I agree with grassfarmer work on getting your cows out as early as you can. First of all its better for the animal adjusting from dry old grass to new stuff and it makes life a lot simpler when you are spring calving....If you are spring calving you better not be feeding... talk about way to screw up mothering and adding headaches to your life.

[Cedar]

tman: "I've noticed that by letting the cows out in May, the grass gets away and heads out. I don't consider that wasted grass, but not the most effecient use of it."

How is that not the most efficient use of it? Is grass use more efficient with regards to animal performance, or with regards to pasture performance, if not allowed to go to head?

[Cedar]

tman: "I think we could easily graze sooner and go with smaller pastures and rotate them more often."

Are you suggesting that the more frequent rotations would be the most benefit? How so? Is there a difference with regards to time of turnout if you're grazing native grasses or tame pasture stands? How does heading out affect each type of stand?

[Cedar]

grassfarmer: "I agree you aren't wasting your grass that heads out early - as Don Cambell says once you've grown grass it's impossible to waste it. You are wasting potential for more growth though."

How is this wasting potential for more growth?

[Cedar]

grassfarmer: "Banking grass for use in April/May gives you a feed source at a time of year when nutritional needs are highest. "

How do you go about "banking" grass?

[Cedar]

gaucho: "If you are spring calving you better not be feeding... talk about way to screw up mothering and adding headaches to your life."

How so?

[smcgrath76]

Interesting thread.
We do not turn cows onto native range until post June 30th at the earliest (usually much later). These rangelands are much more productive when grazed later in the season, and in most of the prairies should only be grazed once per year.
We dormant season graze a lot of our native stuff (November and later). While we prefer not to feed at all, if forced to make a choice I would actually prefer to feed in April/early May to get the grass off to a good start.
The idea of small paddocks is to evenly graze the stand and then move the cattle off completely to let it fully recover. This is no different than the concept of taking two or three cuts off of a hayfield, just using cows to do it. The wetter it is the faster you need to rotate.

[cswilson]

Cedar I think the point he was making is that by feeding you bunch cows up and might cause some mothering mixups.The best calving fields are usually leftover grass from the year previous-grass that cows break out of in the fall they graze with relish in the spring.

[gaucho]

What I meant by screwing mothering up was that...when cows get fed while they calve they become more interested in chasing the feed truck and or the silage wagon. A cow does not have peak nutritional demands till peak lactation which is 2-3 months after calving and so don't worry so much whether the grass has enogh punch to it.... Worry more that your cows have adequate BCS at calving and use that to fill in the differnce for energy shortfall till gree grass.
Secondly when you feed during calving you are bunching up animals and increasing the chances of dieases like scours. Its a pretty simple concept and just requires some thinking through. Just look at what buffaloe in National parks or in the wild.... they don't get fed their either and manage to breed back... the problem is too many guys are running beef cattle that have more gentics akin to dairy animals than beef. The other part of the equation for making it work is to have the right cows suited to a grass program and not that of a barley silage/ barley one. I look foward to your ideas.

Cheers
Gaucho

[grassfarmer]

To answer many of your questions, including some not posed to me i'll give you some of the basics I know about grass, most people probably know this but I see plenty that apparently don't have a clue.

First everyone involved in agriculture is directly or indirectly harvesting produce of soil nutrients, water and solar power, never forget that.

Second grass has a life cycle just like cows. Young grass starts to grow slowly in the spring because it's growing from energy stored in the roots. Once the plants get a bit bigger the leaf area becomes sufficient to capture enough solar rays through photosynthesis to grow and eventually recharge it's root reserves as well. After the plant is past the small leaf stage it gets into the "blaze of growth" stage where speed of growth increases dramatically. This stage passes too as the plant starts to form what will become a seed head. Once the seed heads are on growth really slows down and the energy is directed into ripening the seeds.
With the above in mind the most efficient way to harvest grass with cows is by grazing it just as it is getting to the end of the blaze of growth period. This maximises production, gives least setback to the plant and also ensures high feed value as the crop is still leafy.
If you graze a crop too early you set it back to the slow initial growth stage before you have benefitted from the blaze of growth. If you graze it once it has headed out it won't regrow quickly either. Thus my comment about wasting growth potential - optimum growth is achieved by having a good cover of leafy plants exposed to the sun.
On our place we use planned grazing to try and get every pasture grazed at the appropriate time for the purpose we have in mind for it. We graze much of the land twice a year, some once and one pasture three times (to grass fatten steers which requires a higher quality of grass, achieved through shorter rest periods/ younger grass)Sometimes we rest a pasture for a whole season to regenerate it.

We need to graze virtually the whole place in the fast growth period (usually May 10th to July 1-10th in my area)to prevent grass heading out. We find that being grazed once in this period means that the plants generally will regrow into leafy, spring quality pastures right into the fall rather than try to form seed heads. There are some plants that don't fit this profile or system.

When I talk of banking grass I mean grazing it at the correct stage during the fast growth period so that we will get a good quality leafy regrowth in sufficient quantity to either over winter or graze in the Fall/winter dormant season.

I like Sean's analogy of grazing being similar to a hay cut system - that is how I consider mine. My neighbours are essentially out of pasture now - the cows have grazed everything apart from a few tufts around the manure piles. June 1st to July 15th is not a long enough grazing period in my opinion to make cattle profitable. They have spent the summer making hay, silage or greenfeed and because they have a big pile of feed now they consider themselves to be in good shape despite the "drought ruining" their pastures. In contrast I have not cut an acre with a machine - Most of my place has most of the years production still growing on it - waiting to be harvested by the cows. The biggest difference I see between the two systems is I use cows to harvest the grass versus tractors, balers and diesel. As Grant Lastika says the industry has built a whole system of running cows around the LEAST efficient thing a cow does - eat mechanically harvested feed rather than build it around the MOST efficient thing a cow does - graze.

A few other comments: My pastures are burning up a lot less than continuos grazed ones, more leaf cover keeps them from drying out and hence allows better use of the available moisture.

Guys growing cereal crops that are being harvested now for silage have only had the land covered with solar capturing leafs for a little over 2 months of the year. That's a lot of solar power going to waste! Plus they incurred the cost of mechanical seeding and fertiliser.
Still I'm happy these guys like to grow crop - I've a silage team in just now cutting oats off a neighbours land for $15/ton to winter feed my backgrounding calves! With bare land around here at least $1500 an acre there is no way I would take on extra land to mechanically harvest grass or grain to feed my cattle.

[kpb]

I like grassfarmers comments but there are a few oft-repeated misconceptions in this thread.

First of all I'm getting tired about hearing how deer, elk, moose, wild buffalo and just about every other ruminant calves in the spring, looks after its young quite well and so on and so on. The point being that we should work more closely with mother nature and everything would be rosy. The fact is that deer, etc. generally have low conception rates and overall weaning rates of about 60% per animal exposed. Can any of you guys live on that for your cows?

The idea that feeding cows during calving season somehow has a negative impact upon calving is bizarre. Cows can easily be fed in a large field--ours is 85 acres--and the feed can be spread far and wide on that field. I believe in late calving too but let's not reach for reasons that are not sensible to justify it.

Finally, the notion that buying land to make feed is flawed is not borne out by history. I have had silage custom made on my land for close to 20 years and through many of those years it was the cheapest feed around. I have never not had feed, even during our worst droughts.

But more than that I have come to see that the value of the land is really in how it grows in value and increases our net worth. In reality it is not the cows that are going to grow your estate--it's the land and many of us, especially in Alberta, have prospered on the back of our land values rising. Does this relate to farming? Maybe not and maybe it means we have to be investors as well as ranchers but I'll tell you that I'm really glad that I bought land to make feed many years ago--land that has made much more money during the years that I've had the use of it than I ever will make from my cows. So when you're thinking about making feed on your own land, think about the investment merits of buying that land too.


kpb

[grassfarmer]

Kpb, that's a fair comment on buying land whether for hay or for pasture, but everybody's situation is different. I have actually pulled a fair bit of capital out of my property value with moving here and invested it where it earns a better rate of interest than real estate price increases, or ranching, would have generated. I have settled on an amount that I want invested in farm land ownership and am looking to expand through using other peoples acres from now on. That's my diversified investment stategy and I think the Prairies offer a great chance to make it work.

PS Further to your thread about fly repellent salt blocks - who makes them or where do you get them?

[kpb]

fair enough.

I'll look up the name and manufacturer of the blocks and get back to you tomorrow.

kpb