Alfalfa and roundup

[Bruce14]

We have a older field of alfalfa that needs ripping up due to roughness (mainly moles). Second cut is ready to take and I was wondering if a roundup application precutting would work as it is hard to be certain of enough regrowth after.

Or, as I want to put it back into a grass alfalfa mix for grazing, is there any way to just seed some grass into the existing alfalfa?

Any experiences?

[silverback]

Hit it with at least 2 litres of original roundup.

[cswilson]

Well if you are patient you can spike it a few times and let the quackgrass fill in where the alfalfa doesn't come back-Duck Hay is a pretty good pasture grass if handled right. We've got stands of it are 15 plus years old and still producing well.

[PureCountry]

I have to agree with wilson. There are several ways to manage forage stands without resorting to chemical.

[smcgrath76]

Just a note: Alfalfa creates an allelopathic affect. In other words, the plant secretes a chemical that hampers the growth of alfalfa after breaking and reseeding.
A couple of ideas...
If you are set on breaking it up, can you break the rotation up using a cereal crop for a year?
You may want to try interseeding with your airseeder. I know several producers that have had pretty good luck with this.
Another option may be to intensively stock the sward and feed grass seed to your cattle in their mineral mix. I know of several successful ventures that used this method to establish legumes in existing grass, and don't see why it would not work in reverse.
Yet another option may be to feed grass hay (eg: Bale grazing) on the pasture.
I guess it depends a lot on how quickly you want to convert things over and your patience level.

[cowman]

Bruce: Just my opinion, but when the pasture is so darned rough you shake the bumper off the truck while checking the cows...then maybe time to consider breaking it up?
I'll probably get shot for saying this but I believe most tame pastures should be broken up from time to time. Especially if you want to get some increased production out of it? Very few species can compete with fescues which, in my area at least, will eventually become the dominant species over a long period of time? Alphalfa has a tough time competing with the native fescue? Fescues are not big volume producers.
Moles are a nighmare...without a doubt! And they can pretty well ruin a pasture or hayfield? Wherever the mole hill is, look for weeds to grow? For those of you who don't have moles...you don't know what you are missing!LOL

[coppertop]

no moles or gophers here cowman !!!

[grassfarmer]

I won't shoot you cowman but what you are saying when you state that pastures need to be broken up regularily to maintain production is that your grass management is poor. Pastures do not need to be broken up to maintain production but if you are grazing them in such a way that the productive species are disappearing from the sward to be replaced with less productive species you certainly have a problem.

[cowman]

What can I say, grassfarmer? I'm giving it my best shot?
I let the boy do the little grazing experiment...and while I will admit it is fairly impressive...the darned fescue is sneaking back in! And yes, he had a "mentor"...John Elliot, west of Penhold...who I also note...fescue is sneaking back into his pastures?
The native grass here is fescue? Also called June grass? It is probably the "desired" grass for this region? It is a good grass... it is a "hard" grass...but it is not a volume grass?
Now I'm not real interested in putting on "hard" pounds for the meat business? Washy grass is just peachy for me as it grows momma and a big baby!
I know you have some deep insights into this whole thing and I am so far behind I don't even understand where you are coming from! I'm sorry...I just see basically one year at a time(or maybe a few)? Maybe I don't get the big picture?
I wonder who will be farming your land, and benifitting from all your good management? I have a pretty good idea who will be benifittig from my "inept" management!
This isn't meant to be "snotty"? I actually respect where you are coming from and am striving to understand you? I come from a different point of view...?

[grassfarmer]

I'm not sure what you are calling fescue or june grass cowman, a quick google shows june grass looking more like a fancy flower than a grass? Is it rough fescue you have, the kind that the prairies used to have lots of or is it creeping red fecue?
Anyways I didn't think your place would be growing hard grasses typical of the eastern or southern ranch country when you are always telling me that your land is too good to grow grass and is sure crop country for high yields of canola and grain.

[cowman]

I don't know about what google might say about june grass? June Grass is what this grass was always referred to around here? It is some sort of native fescue, or so I believe? It is tough as nails and pushes out all other grasses in a lawn?
You can really tell where it is when cutting it, with lawn mower, or a haybine. It is very tough to cut.
It was part of the original prairie grass referred to as buffalo grass or prairie wool? It can pretty well take over a lawn...and usually does around here...it is definitely not Kentucky Blue or Creeping Red.

[smcgrath76]

June Grass is a mid height grass. It looks kind of like a very thin version of Brome, with most of the leaves being close to the ground. It is definitely not a climax species in wet areas. Fescue (there are a couple of types in AB) is a bunchgrass that produces like gangbusters and makes a great stockpiled forage if you let it get started in the spring. It is typically a climax species in parkland and foothill regions (higher moisture areas). It is also a decreaser in most environments (cows really like it). Further south, spear grasses and wheatgrasses are the climax species. Most native range is probably dominated by blue grama (eyebrow grass) and Junegrass due to overgazing. This is a particularly sensitive area with me as I see a lot of good, potentially highly productive rangeland being damaged in my travels. My personal pet peeve is people who talk about short grass prairie when in Canada we do not have such a thing. The shortest we go is Northern mixed grass. Shortgrass prairie in Canada is a result of management.
Not sure what your impending grass is cowman, but I would guess it could be fescue or some local terminology that applies to another competitive species. What does the grass look like?

[InAHurry]

Informative page, with pictures!

http://www.agr.gov.sk.ca/DOCS/crops/forage_pasture/forage_management_production/msr6.asp?firstPick=Crops&secondPick=Forage/Pasture&pick=&child=1

Species listed: anybody want to add their common (nickname) for them? Just copy and paste the list and add them?

1. Northern Wheatgrass
Agropyron dasystachyum

2.Western Wheatgrass
Agropyron smithii

3. Slough Grass
Beckmannia syzigachne

4.Blue Grama
Bouteloua gracillis

5.March Reed Grass
Calamagrostis canadensis

6. Sand Grass or Prairie Sandreed
Calamovilfa longifolia

7. Timber Oatgrass
Danthonia intermedia

8. Tufted Hair Grass
Deschampsia caespitosa

9. Desert (Inland) Saltgrass
Distichlis stricta

10. Canada Wildrye
Elymus canadensis

11. Plains Rough Fescue
Festuca scabrella

12. Hooker's Oatgrass
Helictotrichon hookeri

13. June Grass
Koeleria cristata

14. Indian Rice Grass
Oryzopsis hymenoides

15. Kentucky Bluegrass
Poa pratensis

16. Sandberg Bluegrass
Poa sandbergii

17. Little Bluestem
Schizachyrium scoparium

18. Sand Dropseed
Sporobolus cryptandrus

19. Needle-And-Thread
Stipa comata

20. Western Porcupine Grass
Stipa spartea

21. Green Needlegrass
Stipa viridula


The "Western Porcupine Grass" we call spear grass .... a bugger to pick out of the hem of long bridemaid's dresses!!

[coppertop]

oh. TOO MUCH Information. ( not the info on grasses, that was great, just the bridesmaid dress info !!).

Thanks for the website

[InAHurry]

coppertop, LOL, notice I said hem of dress!

There's some links across the top of that page which are worth checking out also.

smcgrath76, where we live the grass just doesn't grow any taller than "short". I'm not saying your right or wrong but it's the best description we have ... LOL